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BlackIce:
Why are Bura's and Connolly's stats padded? They don't play on the PP by and large. PP1 is Ovie/Kuzy/Backstrom/Oshie/Carlson. PP2 is Eller/Vrana/Wilson/Niskanen/Orlov. And besides, PP/PK stats don't pad +/-. As a 3rd line player by and large, Burakovsky gets his share of defensive zone face-offs. And if Gudbranson is getting top 6 minutes, he has to be getting some share of offensive zone face-offs.
You just don't want to face the fact that, despite the type of player he is, Gudbranson has never shown himself to be a very good player, and he's been a complete waste of a #3 draft pick to this point in his career.
DC_1908:
--- Quote from: BlackIce on Tuesday February 26, 2019, 02:06:32 PM Eastern ---Why are Bura's and Connolly's stats padded? They don't play on the PP by and large. PP1 is Ovie/Kuzy/Backstrom/Oshie/Carlson. PP2 is Eller/Vrana/Wilson/Niskanen/Orlov. And besides, PP/PK stats don't pad +/-. As a 3rd line player by and large, Burakovsky gets his share of defensive zone face-offs. And if Gudbranson is getting top 6 minutes, he has to be getting some share of offensive zone fac
You just don't want to face the fact that, despite the type of player he is, Gudbranson has never shown himself to be a very good player, and he's been a complete waste of a #3 draft pick to this point in his career.
--- End quote ---
Not at all, You just don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about in the least, Let alone knot what makes a good player.
Really how the fuck long have you followed this sport? Because you talk shit to try tibsound like you’ve followed it for decades, but what you say shows you’ve followed it for 5 fuckin minutes.
Save us the pathetic attempt to deflect and not answer the easy questions that destroy you’re bullshit cause they’re completely transparent
You don’t wanna face the fact that you don’t know the hell you’re talking about and you’re to naive to realize that.
Really the bullshit you just tried to sell me is EA Sports Special Olympics Hockey shit, and hs nothing to do with the NHZk
I’ve told you before: participate, learn, discuss, but don’t for a second think you know more than anyone here, particularly after you site +/- as a credible stat.
BlackIce:
--- Quote from: DC_1908 on Tuesday February 26, 2019, 07:56:21 PM Eastern ---Not at all, You just don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about in the least, Let alone knot what makes a good player.
Really how the fuck long have you followed this sport? Because you talk shit to try tibsound like you’ve followed it for decades, but what you say shows you’ve followed it for 5 fuckin minutes.
You don’t wanna face the fact that you don’t know the hell you’re talking about and you’re to naive to realize that.
Really the bullshit you just tried to sell me is EA Sports Special Olympics Hockey shit, and hs nothing to do with the NHZk
I’ve told you before: participate, learn, discuss, but don’t for a second think you know more than anyone here, particularly after you site +/- as a credible stat.
--- End quote ---
Right -- and when your arguments are shown not to hold water, you turn to personal insult.
That is the difference between us. I tend to try to treat people with respect. You try to insult and demean people.
And plus minus is a credible stat -- if you track it over a sufficient period of time. It's sort of like shooting percentage; subject to a lot of variation year to year. But if a player is a negative player over year after year after year, evidence starts to accumulate that the player is not suited for the game or role they are playing, or in some way they are overmatched by who they are playing against. Yes, +/- is really a team-on-the-ice stat for individual scores rather than a personal stat. BUT after awhile, if it builds up enough, chances are that the player with the consistent negative result is part of the problem, not part of the solution.
This is one situation where I agree with Ted Leonsis: Sooner or later, you are what your record says you are. Gudbranson sooner or later must be recognized as a player who can't score, can't set up others to score, and when he's on the ice, he -- and his teammates -- can't keep the opposition from scoring more than they do. In a sport that keeps score, that is the definition of an inferior player. And when you factor in that Gudbranson was a #3 draft choice, it isn't a pretty sight.
DC_1908:
--- Quote from: BlackIce on Tuesday February 26, 2019, 08:55:11 PM Eastern ---
Right -- and when your arguments are shown not to hold water, you turn to personal insult.
That is the difference between us. I tend to try to treat people with respect. You try to insult and demean people.
And plus minus is a credible stat -- if you track it over a sufficient period of time. It's sort of like shooting percentage; subject to a lot of variation year to year. But if a player is a negative player over year after year after year, evidence starts to accumulate that the player is not suited for the game or role they are playing, or in some way they are overmatched by who they are playing against. Yes, +/- is really a team-on-the-ice stat for individual scores rather than a personal stat. BUT after awhile, if it builds up enough, chances are that the player with the consistent negative result is part of the problem, not part of the solution.
This is one situation where I agree with Ted Leonsis: Sooner or later, you are what your record says you are. Gudbranson sooner or later must be recognized as a player who can't score, can't set up others to score, and when he's on the ice, he -- and his teammates -- can't keep the opposition from scoring more than they do. In a sport that keeps score, that is the definition of an inferior player. And when you factor in that Gudbranson was a #3 draft choice, it isn't a pretty sight.
--- End quote ---
So Jeff Schultz had one of the the greatest season in history when he was +/- 55 right?
Drew Doughtry has a -25, only -2 behind Gudbranson. Wow Dougthry must really suck then huh?
Alsu the fact that the main Vancouver for Vancouver has a .912 Save % and 1 shutout. Because a goalie letting in beach balls isn’t a factor in +/- right?
But Kuzy, is a +6, despite scoring 58 points AND being on a line with the leagues top scorer, so does that suggest he should be a Selke candidate?
See where I’m going?
The Plus/Minus stat was developed in the 50s by The Canadians. So first you have the year. A time where the key fabs for our cars are more powerful than the best computer on earth, filming games and having game film to study was rare do to the cost, and several other factors due to the year that shows how primitive the stat is. Also, it was developed in Montreal in the 50s, During that time,being post depression and post WWII, it was common for players/coaches to not only start playing at very young age, but quitting school to play, or work. So there where t many players physics or engineering degrees to say the least.
Therefore it’s understandable that writing down the players on your team when a goal is scored and keeping summing it up over time was considered a good stat.
Oh, and Montreal had some “pretty decent” teams back then, so their individual +/- would tend to be higher, which probably explains why they kept it.
Here is a great article on why +/- is the worst stat in hockey Note the part where it says what I referenced at first:"skewing for particular player types"
BlackIce:
Ah, moving the goalposts again, are we??
Note when I described and used +/- it was over a period of several years, which is what is needed to stabilize a variable stat like +/-. And of course you used Doughty's +/- this year, which is his first bad one after a stellar career where he has basically been plus after his rookie season. Maybe he has lost a step and is starting to slip; I don't know -- it will take longer to make a judgment on that. And yes, I'm sure that part of his issue is Jonathan Quick's deterioration this year, though their backup is 3rd in the league. But it MAY WELL BE just a 1-year aberration.
Similarly, you bring up good ol' Jeff Schultz and his one aberrant +/- year. Actually, he was a pretty good positional defender back then, and a good complement to Mike Green at the time, but positioning was all he had, and by a few years later the league had passed him by because of the increasing league emphasis on letting speed win out. It got to the point where Schultz couldn't compete.
As for Kuzy, HIS +/- this year might actually be fairly indicative of what he has been; a top-line center with a lot of talent, and talent around him, who has also been pretty inconsistent in his play AND has garnered a lot of his stats on the PP, which doesn't count in +/-, so he ends up basically an even player (I consider +6 over 60 games basically even, especially for a guy who plays as many minutes as he does.)
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