GDT#40 Devils @ Capitals Dec 30, 2017 7:00pm EST NBCSPW

[Maacoshark]

74 should’ve just glided straight to the bench after that

  After what Carlson didnt cost us. No matter what happens you guys blame Carlson.

   


Those of that have been watching him for almost 10 years do blame him when he screws up, yes. Have we singled him out? No.

I think the real issue is he’s being played and marketed as an “elite” Dman.  The result is a large amount of minutes (which is highly impressive and deservant of praise), that results in hes weakness being exposed, bad tendencies developed etc., more often that causes most of the distrust, disappointment and even dislike towards him.


While certainly and upper tier Dman, it is unreasonable and inaccurate to put him on the class of Burns, Dougherty, Keith, Gairdi, Webber, etc.


This ultimately comes down to management and the orginization asking fat to much of him.  Both to belong in that class and in the system.  Any criticism of him, should not that, and the lack of attention to the DCorps in general (note that most elite dman, have good DCorps around then too)


That being said, he is still young for a Dman.  Mike Green (who got it way worse than Carlson), played some of his best all around hockey this year significantly under the radar.  He (finally) became a very good all around Dman and his typical PP threat. 


So there is still time for Carlson to come around.  The issue is what cap space hit will he ask for and will they able to afford him and help for him.

    I'm not sure about some of those dmen you mentioned. Carlson is playing better than all of them. I dont consider Burns an elite defenseman. He us a big guy with a big shot. He isn't even a true defenseman. He is a converted forward. He is far from a great down dman.
  Keith is a good dman. Can't stand the guy but he us good. But he is having .a bad year. Weber is also having an off year. Although playing for the Canadians is helping. My point is that Carlson is playing better than most of the so called elite defenseman in the league at both ends of the ice.
  Doughty and Hedman might be the best dmen in the league right now.

[Mickstix]

   Carlson is fine defensively. If he was weak defensively they wouldnt be pairing him with Djoos who isn't a defensive defence man. Carlson's play has been a huge part of his success. If he was weak defensively he wouldn't be killing penalties. He wouldn't be on the ice when the game is on the line. Carlson is our best dman on the pp and pk. He is decent 5 on 5 as well. He is our best dman by a mile. You can't debate that.

Using your own words.. He's "Fine" defensively.. He "our" best Dman..  Just because he's "fine defensively" and the best "we" have doesn't really say much, imo.. I like the dude fine, btw, just don't think he should get upwards of 7 million a year (FROM US).. Were already crippled from stupid contracts to guys who've proven they can't find their ass in the playoffs.. Unfortunately we'll either over pay and be stuck with him or let him walk for nothing. It's what we do!

[Maacoshark]

  I dont like the idea of giving him 7 million per season either. I dont what other options are out there though. There will be no other FA dmen close to to his calibre so that isn't an option. It we let him walk we have no one to replace him.

[Maacoshark]

BTW when I say fine defensively I mean he is above average. Wouldn't call him a shut down guy but he is decent. When you look at all if the number one dmen in the league he is better defensively than most. I think trying to keep him long term is our best option.

[RavenCp]

74 should’ve just glided straight to the bench after that

  After what Carlson didnt cost us. No matter what happens you guys blame Carlson.

Those of that have been watching him for almost 10 years do blame him when he screws up, yes. Have we singled him out? No.

I think the real issue is he’s being played and marketed as an “elite” Dman.  The result is a large amount of minutes (which is highly impressive and deservant of praise), that results in hes weakness being exposed, bad tendencies developed etc., more often that causes most of the distrust, disappointment and even dislike towards him.

+1
..sometime he looks careless, but in general I agree.

[Beaglefan2]

I could argue against Carlson being “good” defensively, but let’s set that aside.


For those not in the Carlson camp, here are three reasons why:


1. his lackadaisical style which comes across as laziness. He rarely shows much energy. A great example is on our power play after the other team clears the puck, Carlson always casually skates back to get the puck while precious seconds tick off the clock.


2. He is not physical - at all. This is more frustrating because he has a big body. To his credit, I’m sure he is a nice guy and a great family man, but he never punishes anybody in the corners or in the crease. We don’t ned him to be a fighter, but when has he ever dropped the gloves to stick up for another player? He doesn’t have an aggressive bone in his body. I think if we ever had an old-fashioned line brawl, Carlson would go sit on the bench.


3. He is a big part of the old guard culture core that just won’t/can’t do what it takes to win in the playoffs.

[Maacoshark]

  The game unfortunately has changed. There aren't many physical players left and even less guys that fight. Defensemen no longer play defense with bone crushing hits and clearing the front of the net. Now defense is about positioning and what they call a good stick. I dont like anymore than you do but thats the way the NHL has gone. Thats why you are seeing smaller defensemen in the league now.
   If I had my way I'd have dmen like Stevens and Tinordi. Those guys would be banned for life if they played in today's NHL. The new NHL kinda sucks. Bettman Americanized it.

[justwincaps]

74 should’ve just glided straight to the bench after that

  After what Carlson didnt cost us. No matter what happens you guys blame Carlson.

Those of that have been watching him for almost 10 years do blame him when he screws up, yes. Have we singled him out? No.

   You single him out every game. I have also watched Carlson his entire career. He has had his ups and downs. But he is playing very well this year. Our best dman and it isn't even close. None of you guys will admit he is having a good year. When he does something good, which is quite often no one says a word. He makes a little mistake and you guys pounce on him. You even rip him when he did nothing wrong. Cut the guy some slack. Without him there is no way we are at the top of the division.

Sometimes it’s just OK to say I disagree and let it go.  People are entitled to their opinion.  Resist the temptation to a) feel the need to be smarter and b) the need to try and prove it. 
We aren’t debating scientific facts to be proven or disproven. 

[Beaglefan2]

  The game unfortunately has changed. There aren't many physical players left and even less guys that fight. Defensemen no longer play defense with bone crushing hits and clearing the front of the net. Now defense is about positioning and what they call a good stick. I dont like anymore than you do but thats the way the NHL has gone. Thats why you are seeing smaller defensemen in the league now.
   If I had my way I'd have dmen like Stevens and Tinordi. Those guys would be banned for life if they played in today's NHL. The new NHL kinda sucks. Bettman Americanized it.

Agree. I don't have to see a bunch of fights, but I swear, the Players Union has circulated a secret truce among the teams that says "no body checks!".  It just infuriates me to see forwards skating freely along the boards in the corner, when usually the defenseman has the angle to pound them.  Not only would it be a physical play, but it would be the right play.  Instead, the defenseman these days just skate parallel and poke check. 

I have to say (and I never thought I would say this) I really like Orpik this year as at least he is one guy that still hits in the corners and makes guys think twice about skating down the middle.

[Maacoshark]

   I'd love the physical play back in this league. I agree about Orpik even if he is a pylon out there at times. He makes guys think twice about entering the zone when he is on the ice.

[richkrt99]

Sorry to chime in so late. I watched game around midnight.  Carlson doesn’t suck but don’t think anyone is saying so. Those of us watching him for years realize the guy is a vanilla marshmallow and it is infuriating especially considering his size. He could be a great defenseman IF he would hit someone occasionally and therefore make that a knowing threat an opponent has to watch for. It simply makes a more effective player. Take Orpik as an example. Who do you think opponents worry about more...Carlson or Orpik
Orpik is old and slow and overpaid, but he single handedly turned the game around the other night with a big hit. He will also stand up for a teammate and Carlson will never ever do that and that’s what I want from my defensemen.
Carlson does make the Caps a better team but I would not call him Elite.
Realistically I can’t see how the Caps can afford to pay what he will demand next year. I personally don’t think he is worth 7 mil but he will likely get it from someone.
I am disappointed the Caps did not use him for trade bait years ago but I will concede Carlson has improved and his last two years have been his best. His seemingly bong-smoking attitude is amplified by thesame Lackluster effort shown by the old core here.

Sorry for the rant. Good to see folks back on these boards hope to participate in real time again...someday

[RavenCp]

Trotz is now 5th all time with wins

And never made out of 2nd round in the playoffs.

[Maacoshark]

  Maybe this is the year

[alta]

and here I thought it was just me

[Beaglefan2]

Sorry to chime in so late. I watched game around midnight.  Carlson doesn’t suck but don’t think anyone is saying so. Those of us watching him for years realize the guy is a vanilla marshmallow and it is infuriating especially considering his size. He could be a great defenseman IF he would hit someone occasionally and therefore make that a knowing threat an opponent has to watch for. It simply makes a more effective player. Take Orpik as an example. Who do you think opponents worry about more...Carlson or Orpik
Orpik is old and slow and overpaid, but he single handedly turned the game around the other night with a big hit. He will also stand up for a teammate and Carlson will never ever do that and that’s what I want from my defensemen.
Carlson does make the Caps a better team but I would not call him Elite.
Realistically I can’t see how the Caps can afford to pay what he will demand next year. I personally don’t think he is worth 7 mil but he will likely get it from someone.
I am disappointed the Caps did not use him for trade bait years ago but I will concede Carlson has improved and his last two years have been his best. His seemingly bong-smoking attitude is amplified by thesame Lackluster effort shown by the old core here.

Sorry for the rant. Good to see folks back on these boards hope to participate in real time again...someday

Well said - couldn't agree more. If the Caps had smart management they would be sellers at the trade deadline and get a huge return on Carlson. I know, I know, this would make us weaker when we have one last chance at a Cup.  Blah, blah, blah - same old reasoning we have had for years with no results - with having Carlson on the ice for all our epic playoff failures.  Trade him, let Chorney or some Hershey call-up fill in.  It really won't be that big of a drop off and we can start rebuilding - both the prospects and the culture!


Sorry for the rant. Good to see folks back on these boards hope to participate in real time again...someday

[Mickstix]

Yea, they don't have the guts to trade him at the deadline. The only guts our GM(s) have, is when spending Ted's money. Then when they walk for nothing just "aww shucks.. nothin' we could did boss"   

[Rush]

Well folks, you know I had to chime in on this!

So we all hear over and over again, that the NHL has changed. Defenseman have a different role now, more offensive, faster, more tactical approach, WHATEVER!!! I'll even concede it's true!!
This ALSO MEANS that, if so, it is then RELATIVE, as a standard to judge them on, regardless of whether we like the changes or NOT! ....SO....
I'll give FULL personal credit to Carlson for his shot blocking abilities, as his numbers are decent there! I'll give him MINIMAL, PERSONAL credit, for his great POINTS total! WHY? Because he is given an Incredibly lopsided opportunity to attain those points. Ultra-high TOI, with our top goal scorers on the ice with him! ADD to that his opportunistic presence on the PP, and you've got the whole picture!! ANYONE, including my grandma, would have those numbers, with such a potential!!
His LOWEST ON THE TEAM, Shooting percentage, combined with his 2nd HIGHEST on the team in shot attempts, (only OVI has more shots), wins him the title of the #1 "DUD SHOOTER", on the team!  So then, ask yourself WHY, he shoots so much!  The answer is in COMPLETE SELFISHNESS, as a player!
When JOHN CARLSON takes ALOT of SOG's, he is improving his Corsi (+\-), when HE is on the ice! He knows his Corsi is negative, and ATTEMPTS to "shoot his way out of it"!!  Not giving a DAMN about how his "Inaccuracy", affects how it potentially robs someone else, (any other MORE ACCURATE shooter), of their opportunity!! Think about how this "Tokemaster king", must see himself, in order to KEEP ON shooting duds, game after game, shift after shift, NOT EVEN EMBARRRASED, when he PERPETUALLY misfires!!!  NORRIS TROPHY MY ASS!!!  And this isn't even addressing defensive skills, yet!!
I'll concede that there may be a SLIVER of improvement, generally speaking, in some dreamy cloud of his overall play, but saying we wouldn't be where we are NOW, without him!!! Those thoughts must come out of the same "bong circle" that Carly joins, pre-game!! LOL

Rush

[DC_1908]

Sorry to chime in so late. I watched game around midnight.  Carlson doesn’t suck but don’t think anyone is saying so. Those of us watching him for years realize the guy is a vanilla marshmallow and it is infuriating especially considering his size. He could be a great defenseman IF he would hit someone occasionally and therefore make that a knowing threat an opponent has to watch for. It simply makes a more effective player. Take Orpik as an example. Who do you think opponents worry about more...Carlson or Orpik
Orpik is old and slow and overpaid, but he single handedly turned the game around the other night with a big hit. He will also stand up for a teammate and Carlson will never ever do that and that’s what I want from my defensemen.
Carlson does make the Caps a better team but I would not call him Elite.
Realistically I can’t see how the Caps can afford to pay what he will demand next year. I personally don’t think he is worth 7 mil but he will likely get it from someone.
I am disappointed the Caps did not use him for trade bait years ago but I will concede Carlson has improved and his last two years have been his best. His seemingly bong-smoking attitude is amplified by thesame Lackluster effort shown by the old core here.

Sorry for the rant. Good to see folks back on these boards hope to participate in real time again...someday

Well said - couldn't agree more. If the Caps had smart management they would be sellers at the trade deadline and get a huge return on Carlson. I know, I know, this would make us weaker when we have one last chance at a Cup.  Blah, blah, blah - same old reasoning we have had for years with no results - with having Carlson on the ice for all our epic playoff failures.  Trade him, let Chorney or some Hershey call-up fill in.  It really won't be that big of a drop off and we can start rebuilding - both the prospects and the culture!


Sorry for the rant. Good to see folks back on these boards hope to participate in real time again...someday

I agree, to bad they don’t have a young overpaid Dman that is ready to step up and not only take Carlson’s place but to do better than him.


Or so GMBetaMale thought, at least should have .  The contract Orlov conned GMBetaMale into all but doomed us from keeping Carlson.  Not just in the cap space, but with the market value.


But as Mick said moving Carlson (or Orlov) won’t happen, at least not with this GM
 

[Beaglefan2]

Rush - you actually think Carlson thinks about his CORSI?  You are giving him way too much credit.  He is just a bad shooter - always has been.

Regarding his point totals, you are spot on - he gets way too much credit for passing over to Ovi on the PP.  Yes, he is decent at it, but how many times with his molasses style, has he been slow to get the puck to him?  I would rather see Orlov on the PP any day.

What I don't get about Carlson, is that he used to be pretty good bringing the puck up the ice and now he seems afraid to do it and shows a lot of indecision.  Part of it is the stupid drop-pass that everyone is doing, however he regressed well before that.  It is pretty humorous though watching Carlson slowly skate up the ice to do the drop pass.  Half the time he just blindly drops it backwards, almost giving it to the other team.  Now THAT would be classic Carlson.

[DC_1908]

Rush - you actually think Carlson thinks about his CORSI?  You are giving him way too much credit.  He is just a bad shooter - always has been.

Regarding his point totals, you are spot on - he gets way too much credit for passing over to Ovi on the PP.  Yes, he is decent at it, but how many times with his molasses style, has he been slow to get the puck to him?  I would rather see Orlov on the PP any day.

What I don't get about Carlson, is that he used to be pretty good bringing the puck up the ice and now he seems afraid to do it and shows a lot of indecision.  Part of it is the stupid drop-pass that everyone is doing, however he regressed well before that.  It is pretty humorous though watching Carlson slowly skate up the ice to do the drop pass.  Half the time he just blindly drops it backwards, almost giving it to the other team.  Now THAT would be classic Carlson.

Carlson’s shot totals are certainly part of how he’s used in the system, particularly the PP.  They certainly want him to make a high volume of shots to first put the puck on net for a rebound, am secondly to pull the coverage off Ovie for the cliche one-timer.


That being the case, there has been little change to the PP since outs so the league has long since figured it out.

But I agree with you completely about the “drop passes” and the other ridiculous amount turnovers and occasionally lazy style . . . for him to be the “elite” dman everyone says, that’s gotta be better. . . and even then, he’s just, and only just,  an “offensive defenseman”, which is marketing label for a “fourth forward who can skate backwards well.  We’ve all seen them cost way more goals and games than they’ve caused or won.   


And we have one leading all of our Dman in ice time