Author Topic: Offseason starts  (Read 135690 times)

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Offline dpf1971

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Re: Offseason starts
« Reply #100 on: Tuesday June 26, 2018, 07:18:52 PM Eastern »
Interesting ..... DSP did NOT get a qualifying letter.  Wilson, Bowey, Boyd, Barber and O'Brien (hells yeah !!) did get them.  Though they are supposedly still talking to the guy.  Wonder what this means ... maybe a move to rap up Vrana, Burakovsky, Stephenson and Djoos a year early??  Who knows ....

Offline Devise

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Re: Offseason starts
« Reply #101 on: Tuesday June 26, 2018, 08:37:12 PM Eastern »
I was an am a big Alzner fan.  That injury last year  took a toll on him, but before than he excellent against the other teams top scorers, blocks, not letting the goalie be screened,  and not committing turnovers.


I will prefer quiet consistent play like that over the high risk high reward of having a Dman routinely pinching, getting caught to deep in the offensive zone, making risky passes, or the other liabilities that come with using a defenseman as a large part of your offense (patricualrly when the forwards covering for them are not great defensively


To be fair though we haven't been lacking completely in that department. Niskanen has his off days, but when he's on he does all of those things well and pitches in offensively to boot. Granted he isn't nearly as physical, but he isn't lacking in the physical department and throws some big hits when needed. He's just got the IQ and is mean enough mentally to make up for it.


While we did lose him, Orpik as well has been good and steady for us. I know you were one of his biggest detractors (hooks and all) but I can't not see a world where players like him, Oshie and Eller who you criticize didn't earn some blood sweat and tear respect from you. They played their hearts out too much for that. Nisky too.


I mean more than the last 6-7 games too. I think those names I mentioned above were some of our most consistent players this year. I don't think it means everything, but the pecking order of who gets the Cup first second etc after a win is telling to leaders and workers in the LR. Those names I mentioned got it pretty early, and before a lot of the more skill guys in our line up, notably Kuzy. Despite Kuzy's great playoffs.

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Re: Offseason starts
« Reply #102 on: Tuesday June 26, 2018, 10:02:21 PM Eastern »
Odd how you didnt bring up Olesniak, one of the top fighters in the league who "can skate, can't play, just fight" cracked the Hens starting line up and did a great job shutting us down. . .and for a 4th rounder too.

But back to Carlson, its because he is only a 4th forward.  The simple fact the he finally played resoectable D in the last 7 games cannot logically Trump the last 7 months of the season or the whole of he is career.

This new Carlson ‘is one of if not the D best in league”, is the result of the Cup highd the off season hype, this soon to be gone trend of the offensive Dman/4th forward, and that people who watch this team 3 times a week don’t remember what a good Dman.


How people can forget the years, including this regular season of anti-Carlson statements here and even on broadcasts?  Calling him out for loafing, bad passing, not blocking shots, letting the other team stand on Holtby because he won’t/can’t clear the crease?  Hell Maaco was almost rum out of here just for saying he was the best D we had.

But a few games with minimal mistakes, a bunch of TV coverage about being a UFA and everyone hops on the "Carlson is one of the best bandwagon"?   Like someone with all the faults above will play like he did in the last 7 games for 8 years?   How does this make sense?

Come on you're comparing him with Sutter and Burns now.  At the beginning of the playoffs you'd be laughing at anyone who said that.  Hell he isnt even matched up against the other teams leading scorer half the time.  The reason he has the points than them is that his primary role is offensive compensate for his mediocre defense, not because he is the best D man in the world.

People disagree with me now, but in 3-4yrs if not before people will hate this contract.


Personally I think the 8 for 8 contract has handcuffed this team. Again. I think his last three months are an anomaly. If the rest of his career was half as good/consistent as the past three months I might feel better about the contract, but I think it sucks.


Was it Stamkos that said long contracts make players lazy? I think that has been part of OVs problem for the past several seasons. He did step up this playoffs when it started to look like they might actually do something, but like I said before, this Cup didn't happen without the younger guys we had to bring in for 17-18. Not because they were great players, but because they didn't have that the hens are gonna beat us again mindset.
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Maacoshark

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Re: Offseason starts
« Reply #103 on: Tuesday June 26, 2018, 10:59:19 PM Eastern »
I validated the majority of that list (that I came up with) with the only obectional public scouting report I
know of:


Keith Scouting Report


Then here is Carlsons, which supports much if what both of us say:


Exles at shutdown, vs efficient at shutdown

Who would you rather have against the other teams top scores, particularly in tie or with a lead?
   I'll be honest. I don't like Keith. I dont like his game. And I think he is the most overrated dman in the league. I would never want Keith on my team.

Maacoshark

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Re: Offseason starts
« Reply #104 on: Tuesday June 26, 2018, 11:10:12 PM Eastern »
I was an am a big Alzner fan.  That injury last year  took a toll on him, but before than he excellent against the other teams top scorers, blocks, not letting the goalie be screened,  and not committing turnovers.


I will prefer quiet consistent play like that over the high risk high reward of having a Dman routinely pinching, getting caught to deep in the offensive zone, making risky passes, or the other liabilities that come with using a defenseman as a large part of your offense (patricualrly when the forwards covering for them are not great defensively
   I was a big Alzner fan myself. He was a very good shutdown dman, good shot blocker and excellent on the pk. His injury problems really hurt his game. To the point that he was becoming a liability.
    You seem to have a big issue with creating offense from your back end. Pretty much every team has an offensive dman. Its been that way for a long time. At least our offensive dman can handle himself in the defensive zone. Remember guys like Leetch, Coffey and Housley? Those guys didnt play defense.

Offline ArJunaZ

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Re: Offseason starts
« Reply #105 on: Tuesday June 26, 2018, 11:32:43 PM Eastern »
And here’s a few glimpses of what a Dman, both shutdown & 200ft, not just a 4th forward, looks like in todays game.  Granted the years are adding up for him, but he’s still quitely one of the best. 


I’ll warn you this is pretty violent . . .




That video is awesome. I almost forgot what hockey used to be like. A lot of those hits would be suspensions  today.  Can't say that I disagree with trying to remove hits to the head. I just wish they were consistent in their judgment.  I think that video had more stars and birdies in it than any other I've seen.
 :wackysmile:
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Offline DC_1908

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Re: Offseason starts
« Reply #106 on: Wednesday June 27, 2018, 09:23:07 AM Eastern »
   I was a big Alzner fan myself. He was a very good shutdown dman, good shot blocker and excellent on the pk. His injury problems really hurt his game. To the point that he was becoming a liability.
    You seem to have a big issue with creating offense from your back end. Pretty much every team has an offensive dman. Its been that way for a long time. At least our offensive dman can handle himself in the defensive zone. Remember guys like Leetch, Coffey and Housley? Those guys didnt play defense.
The issue is with the high salary price and high risk that comes along with them, particularly when they get massive minutes and  the system makes then a key part of 5 on 5 strategies. 


While the current concept generally evolved in the 90s from Bobby Orr, I don’t recall those 3 that you mentioned routinely pinching  or playing behind the net.  Even then, Housley and Coffey (and pretty salute Leetch), could flat out FLY, and get back to the D-Zone ahead of most forwards in there time.

But as the risks and cap hits of offensive defenseman get higher and higher, more and more teams will move away from them and exploit the ones that insist on having one or more.

Offline DC_1908

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Re: Offseason starts
« Reply #107 on: Wednesday June 27, 2018, 10:20:46 AM Eastern »
That video is awesome. I almost forgot what hockey used to be like. A lot of those hits would be suspensions  today.  Can't say that I disagree with trying to remove hits to the head. I just wish they were consistent in their judgment.  I think that video had more stars and birdies in it than any other I've seen.
 :wackysmile:
Some of those where pretty recent, he even had a few this year.  He seems to be able to walk the tightrope of the “wheel of justice” and avoid suspensions.


None the less, “as the video clearly shows”, causing forwards think twice/look twice before entering the offensive zone is a highly effective defense tactic with random costs of penalties or suspensions that are typically worth the outcome.

Offline OldHat

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Re: Offseason starts
« Reply #108 on: Wednesday June 27, 2018, 11:16:20 AM Eastern »
Interesting ..... DSP did NOT get a qualifying letter.  Wilson, Bowey, Boyd, Barber and O'Brien (hells yeah !!) did get them.  Though they are supposedly still talking to the guy.  Wonder what this means ... maybe a move to rap up Vrana, Burakovsky, Stephenson and Djoos a year early??  Who knows ....


Could possibly be that they wanted to avoid arbitration with DSP.  I'd like to see him back for his toughness.  If not they need to give O'Brien another shot at it on the wing.  If he's gone, and with Orpik gone we got a lot softer.
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Online Mickstix

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Re: Offseason starts
« Reply #109 on: Wednesday June 27, 2018, 12:24:28 PM Eastern »
Interesting ..... DSP did NOT get a qualifying letter.  Wilson, Bowey, Boyd, Barber and O'Brien (hells yeah !!) did get them.



Aren't qualifying offers just for 1 year? Seems they'd want to sign Wilson for at least 3? Or is this just a starting point? Hope they can get DSP back as well.. He may turn out to be the Joel Ward type who actually has that playoff gear to find consistently..

Online BlackIce

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Re: Offseason starts
« Reply #110 on: Wednesday June 27, 2018, 03:39:48 PM Eastern »
If the Caps want to sign Wilson longer-term at this point, they would want to sign him for 5 years at least, to tie up the first couple of his UFA years.  More and more, teams want to avoid contracts that end in a player's age 27 year, at least for players that the team feels are its most valuable -- and the Caps see Wilson as a very valuable asset.  If he doesn't sign a long-term contract, he'll probably just sign a contract for a year or two, so that he is still in RFA status when it ends.


The players that a team feels less attached to are the ones that they will go year to year on until age 27 (and beyond.)


DSP's situation is totally money -- more specifically, totally arbitration.  The rest got a qualifying letter because the players either don't have the threat of arbitration to create a BINDING high salary, the player's contributions to date aren't enough to create a situation where an arbiter would give a problematically high award, or in Wilson's case, the team is already willing to commit to the higher compensation that is coming.  But DSP might get a high award that the team couldn't handle within its cap limits without jettisoning someone else they want, and once an arbitration award is set the team CAN'T back away from it.  It becomes part of the salary cap computations, period.

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Re: Offseason starts
« Reply #111 on: Wednesday June 27, 2018, 06:19:48 PM Eastern »
DSP just signed a 1 for 1. I think he deserves more than that.
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Offline Beaglefan2

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Re: Offseason starts
« Reply #112 on: Wednesday June 27, 2018, 08:27:03 PM Eastern »
Not sure why DSP only got that?  If he did not sign, was he going to arbitration?  Surely he would have gotten more than that in arbitration.

Offline Beaglefan2

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Re: Offseason starts
« Reply #113 on: Wednesday June 27, 2018, 08:29:59 PM Eastern »

Could possibly be that they wanted to avoid arbitration with DSP.  I'd like to see him back for his toughness.  If not they need to give O'Brien another shot at it on the wing.  If he's gone, and with Orpik gone we got a lot softer.



Totally agree.  Orpik was our last guy that was feared by the other team.  At least DSP will give it a go every now and then.  Looks like we have him for next year and maybe they will resign Orpik as well.


Online BlackIce

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Re: Offseason starts
« Reply #114 on: Wednesday June 27, 2018, 08:34:20 PM Eastern »

Totally agree.  Orpik was our last guy that was feared by the other team.  At least DSP will give it a go every now and then.  Looks like we have him for next year and maybe they will resign Orpik as well.




Tom Wilson might want to take issue with that statement.

Offline zerofox

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Re: Offseason starts
« Reply #115 on: Wednesday June 27, 2018, 08:40:35 PM Eastern »
1x1 is a good price for DSP from our point of view. He could get more but this is a cap friendly move I think. He's not the best player, and I wouldn't want to hype him up just on his playoff performance, and I definitely don't want him in the top 6, but he's a serviceable bottom 6 player with some experience. Considering entry level contracts are only a few hundred grand less, I'd say this is a good prce

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Re: Offseason starts
« Reply #116 on: Wednesday June 27, 2018, 09:18:52 PM Eastern »
DSPs 1 for 1 is an awsome contract for the Caps. But they should've done better. Losing the energy DSP brings will be just like losing Chimmer. Carlsons contract should've been 5 years at best, because of the cap hit
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Online BlackIce

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Re: Offseason starts
« Reply #117 on: Wednesday June 27, 2018, 09:40:06 PM Eastern »
DSPs 1 for 1 is an awsome contract for the Caps. But they should've done better. Losing the energy DSP brings will be just like losing Chimmer. Carlsons contract should've been 5 years at best, because of the cap hit




In what world other than a fantasy world SHOULD Carlson's contract have been for 5 years or fewer?  The Caps had to pay what they did to keep him because it was a lead-pipe cinch that some other team would have paid him at least 8 million dollars a year for the maximum term that an outside team could have signed him for, 7 years, and it would have happened on July 1.


Just like losing Chimmer?  So the Caps lost Chimmer, and DSP was signed and now the Caps have a cup.  How was losing Chimera such a gut-wrenching experience?

Offline Beaglefan2

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Re: Offseason starts
« Reply #118 on: Wednesday June 27, 2018, 10:30:26 PM Eastern »



Tom Wilson might want to take issue with that statement.


Yes - I meant for our defensemen as guys come across the middle. Thankfully, we still have Willy and hopefully can get him locked up.

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Re: Offseason starts
« Reply #119 on: Wednesday June 27, 2018, 10:42:48 PM Eastern »
The issue is with the high salary price and high risk that comes along with them, particularly when they get massive minutes and  the system makes then a key part of 5 on 5 strategies. 


While the current concept generally evolved in the 90s from Bobby Orr, I don’t recall those 3 that you mentioned routinely pinching  or playing behind the net.  Even then, Housley and Coffey (and pretty salute Leetch), could flat out FLY, and get back to the D-Zone ahead of most forwards in there time.

But as the risks and cap hits of offensive defenseman get higher and higher, more and more teams will move away from them and exploit the ones that insist on having one or more.
   Those guys got caught pinching alot and when they were playing in their own end they were totally clueless back there. Now those guys were literally one dimensional  Hously is the worst defender I have EVER seen. You guys really shouldn't be ripping Carlson for his game. He is a 2way defenceman. He is better defensively than most offensive defenceman in the league.