Offseason starts

[BlackIce]

    I dont compare him to any of those dmen those guys are all top shutdown guys. You make it sound like Carlson is an offense only player. That just isnt the case. He isn't bad defensively. And he us a decent penalty killer. Just because you don't care vfor his game doesnt change that.
   Oh you mentioned Bobby Orr with all those shutdown dmen. Not sure if you watched Orr play or not. He was good defensively but he wasnt a shutdown guy. You could have included Larry Robinson and Denis Potvin in that list.

Funny how, when we talk about whether or not Carlson is a shutdown defenseman, we're comparing him to guys who played decades ago.  (We could add Langway to the list, by the way).  Thing is, the rules of the game, the capabilities of the players, and the nature of the play is NOTHING like it was decades ago.


I really wonder if any of the players that have been mentioned in recent posts would be anywhere near as effective now as they were decades ago.  I would define a "shutdown defenseman" as a person who, with reasonable defensive support from his teammates, can dominate play in the defensive zone (turn over puck control, deny quality scoring chances in the slot, not make dumb mistakes that lead to quality scoring chances for the opposition) to such an extent that he alone can virtually eliminate offense from the opponent when he is on the ice.  I don't know that such a player exists anymore, because the nature of the game is now such that 5-man defense is imperative, especially as the intensity of play ramps up. 


If we faced a "shutdown defenseman" in this year's playoffs, it was probably Victor Hedman -- and he was a -7 in the Caps/Tampa series.  To be blunt, he didn't shut down diddly squat.  The entire concept of a "shutdown defenseman" may be one that is receding due to the evolution of rules and the nature of play.  The bevy of defensemen selected in the first round of the just-completed draft certainly suggests that; the small, quick defenseman with offensive strike capability was what everyone was looking for. 


Now in DC's world, all that means is that all the GM's are stupid and they aren't building to COUNTERACT what everyone else is doing.  I'm presuming that he would then be relatively happy with the Caps selecting Alexeyev, who has the potential to be a sturdy, rugged defenseman (assuming he gets with the weight/nutritional program) that could clear the slot and defend by pushing smaller people around.  We'll see how that works out.


But back to Carlson:  I don't know that it is fair to compare him to shutdown defensemen of a generation or more ago.  It isn't fair to him, and it may not be fair to the nature of today's game.  His contract will undoubtedly be a large overpay in the last half of it.  We can hope that he pays dividends commensurate with his cost in the first half (his 29-32 year seasons; arguably his prime).  My big concern with Carlson is that he has already played 8 or 9 rugged, essentially full seasons of duty as a top defenseman with lots of TOI.  The guy is a horse, but there is always the possibility that injury or general wear and tear could deteriorate his play and make his contract an albatross sooner rather than later (cf Karl Alzner.)  That's the risk the organization takes to lock down the services of clearly one of the best all-around defensemen around right now in a market where the alternatives were, frankly, unpalatable.

[DC_1908]

Funny how, when we talk about whether or not Carlson is a shutdown defenseman, we're comparing him to guys who played decades ago.  (We could add Langway to the list, by the way).  Thing is, the rules of the game, the capabilities of the players, and the nature of the play is NOTHING like it was decades ago.


I really wonder if any of the players that have been mentioned in recent posts would be anywhere near as effective now as they were decades ago.  I would define a "shutdown defenseman" as a person who, with reasonable defensive support from his teammates, can dominate play in the defensive zone (turn over puck control, deny quality scoring chances in the slot, not make dumb mistakes that lead to quality scoring chances for the opposition) to such an extent that he alone can virtually eliminate offense from the opponent when he is on the ice.  I don't know that such a player exists anymore, because the nature of the game is now such that 5-man defense is imperative, especially as the intensity of play ramps up. 


If we faced a "shutdown defenseman" in this year's playoffs, it was probably Victor Hedman -- and he was a -7 in the Caps/Tampa series.  To be blunt, he didn't shut down diddly squat.  The entire concept of a "shutdown defenseman" may be one that is receding due to the evolution of rules and the nature of play.  The bevy of defensemen selected in the first round of the just-completed draft certainly suggests that; the small, quick defenseman with offensive strike capability was what everyone was looking for. 


Now in DC's world, all that means is that all the GM's are stupid and they aren't building to COUNTERACT what everyone else is doing.  I'm presuming that he would then be relatively happy with the Caps selecting Alexeyev, who has the potential to be a sturdy, rugged defenseman (assuming he gets with the weight/nutritional program) that could clear the slot and defend by pushing smaller people around.  We'll see how that works out.


But back to Carlson:  I don't know that it is fair to compare him to shutdown defensemen of a generation or more ago.  It isn't fair to him, and it may not be fair to the nature of today's game.  His contract will undoubtedly be a large overpay in the last half of it.  We can hope that he pays dividends commensurate with his cost in the first half (his 29-32 year seasons; arguably his prime).  My big concern with Carlson is that he has already played 8 or 9 rugged, essentially full seasons of duty as a top defenseman with lots of TOI.  The guy is a horse, but there is always the possibility that injury or general wear and tear could deteriorate his play and make his contract an albatross sooner rather than later (cf Karl Alzner.)  That's the risk the organization takes to lock down the services of clearly one of the best all-around defensemen around right now in a market where the alternatives were, frankly, unpalatable.

Oh come fuck on,  glad you like "wamans" hockey so much. Gee maybe the NHL will ban fighting, all contact, suspend players who bench to much, and go co-ed before the end of your lifetime!  Thats they way society is going so therefore it must be great and we must obey, right?

BTW, if you don't think shutdown D players exist anymore, either you don't watch much hockey, or you are just trying to agitate me.

[dpf1971]

So DC ... let me ask you this.  In the league, right now, tell me the names of at least 2 or 3 of your goon/shut-down defensemen - ie. the guys you would want to populate our blue line.

[DC_1908]

Funny how, when we talk about whether or not Carlson is a shutdown defenseman, we're comparing him to guys who played decades ago.  (We could add Langway to the list, by the way).  Thing is, the rules of the game, the capabilities of the players, and the nature of the play is NOTHING like it was decades ago.


I really wonder if any of the players that have been mentioned in recent posts would be anywhere near as effective now as they were decades ago.  I would define a "shutdown defenseman" as a person who, with reasonable defensive support from his teammates, can dominate play in the defensive zone (turn over puck control, deny quality scoring chances in the slot, not make dumb mistakes that lead to quality scoring chances for the opposition) to such an extent that he alone can virtually eliminate offense from the opponent when he is on the ice.  I don't know that such a player exists anymore, because the nature of the game is now such that 5-man defense is imperative, especially as the intensity of play ramps up. 


If we faced a "shutdown defenseman" in this year's playoffs, it was probably Victor Hedman -- and he was a -7 in the Caps/Tampa series.  To be blunt, he didn't shut down diddly squat.  The entire concept of a "shutdown defenseman" may be one that is receding due to the evolution of rules and the nature of play.  The bevy of defensemen selected in the first round of the just-completed draft certainly suggests that; the small, quick defenseman with offensive strike capability was what everyone was looking for. 


Now in DC's world, all that means is that all the GM's are stupid and they aren't building to COUNTERACT what everyone else is doing.  I'm presuming that he would then be relatively happy with the Caps selecting Alexeyev, who has the potential to be a sturdy, rugged defenseman (assuming he gets with the weight/nutritional program) that could clear the slot and defend by pushing smaller people around.  We'll see how that works out.


But back to Carlson:  I don't know that it is fair to compare him to shutdown defensemen of a generation or more ago.  It isn't fair to him, and it may not be fair to the nature of today's game.  His contract will undoubtedly be a large overpay in the last half of it.  We can hope that he pays dividends commensurate with his cost in the first half (his 29-32 year seasons; arguably his prime).  My big concern with Carlson is that he has already played 8 or 9 rugged, essentially full seasons of duty as a top defenseman with lots of TOI.  The guy is a horse, but there is always the possibility that injury or general wear and tear could deteriorate his play and make his contract an albatross sooner rather than later (cf Karl Alzner.)  That's the risk the organization takes to lock down the services of clearly one of the best all-around defensemen around right now in a market where the alternatives were, frankly, unpalatable.

And here’s a few glimpses of what a Dman, both shutdown & 200ft, not just a 4th forward, looks like in todays game.  Granted the years are adding up for him, but he’s still quitely one of the best. 


I’ll warn you this is pretty violent . . .

[DC_1908]

So DC ... let me ask you this.  In the league, right now, tell me the names of at least 2 or 3 of your goon/shut-down defensemen - ie. the guys you would want to populate our blue line.

Well, with out cap considerations, or lets just say players in the style of:
- Sutter
- Hedman
- Burns
- Chara
- Dougherty
- Webber
- D Buff (his last name is a bitch to spell)
- Phanuef
- Keith
- Kronwall

- Methot
- Olesniak
- Millar
- Bieksa
- McNabb
- McQuaid
- Stephen Johns
- Martinez


to name a but a few of the physical shutdown defenseman that according to some "canot play in this league anymore". 


While they are smart enough to run a PP, or have a heavy enough shot in Burns case, to contribute offensively, it can safely be said that their primary assignments are defending against the top scorers of the other team, not trying to toe-drag and dangle behind the other teams net shortly followed by coasting watching the other teams odd-man rush and/or break away because no ones there to stop it.


Sure I listed some superstars that are some of the highest players in the league up there, but I also threw in a few little to unknown ones as well.   If you go through the reports of of most NHL teams, you will see more shutdown/defensive defenseman on the current roster and in the systems than most would think or acknowledge existed.  This type of player doesn't get numbers and doesn't get much attention/hype/promotion except when the ones they are playing against aren't scoring, or a hit/fight extra, ergo like Milar  they get dubbed 'goons'. . .

[dpf1971]

OK ... nice list.  First off let me say I'd love to have a bunch of these guys - but really, when you get down to it there are only a few tough guys on here that bring more OVERALL to the plate than Carlson.  Some might have .... years ago.  Chara, Webber, Kronwall, and Bieksa.  Others are pretty much the same or near the same guy as Carlson but you'll never get them away from their teams or get them for the same money AND no NMC.  Sutter, Hedman, Burns, Dougherty, Keith.  And for the second section of your list - well most of those guys don't even come close to being as good at being an all-around defender. Sure McQaid will drop the gloves but he won't have half as many points, a ton more penalty minutes (something a top-4 defender can't have) and isn't nearly as mobile - ie. can't even get around on the ice that well.   But I said shut-down guy right?  I know, I did ask for those names - but in this day and age that the current game is - every guy has to be well-rounded.  Carlson isn't perfect, I'll be the first to admit to it.  But the game you want to be played doesn't exist or did; decades ago.  But that second list I put up: Sutter, Hedman, Burns, Dougherty, Keith - in the minds of fans other teams, ie that doesn't watch Carlson 3 times a week, Carlson is probably a member of that list as well ... esp. after this year.  He's in his prime and getting better, little by little, every year.  We got him for market value - and we have him until we get rid of him or he retires.  So why, other than he isn't going to get into any fights, are you bitching?

[KitFisto]

So why, other than he isn't going to get into any fights

We have a bingo!


DC seems to think the path to the cup is with 4 lines of Tony Twist and 3 D pairings of Marty Mcsorley.


Not that I have any issues with tough guys.....love em, but you can't win with nothing, but tough guys.

[dpf1971]

I will say this though.  The one guy that brings, at least, a similar level of offense and defensive play but also adds in a serious degree of nasty .... which means he's really about the one guy I would take above Carlson on sheer face-value, is THIS SEASON's Byfuglien (holy fuck, I hate spelling that guy's name).  I don't want my boy DC think I'm just out to beat up on him ...


Note:  He makes 400K less than Carlson but has a modified NTC.

[Mickstix]

Holy cow, can Carlson give me a loan?  I was expecting the long term, but 8x8??? Yikees..

[Maacoshark]

Well, with out cap considerations, or lets just say players in the style of:
- Sutter
- Hedman
- Burns
- Chara
- Dougherty
- Webber
- D Buff (his last name is a bitch to spell)
- Phanuef
- Keith
- Kronwall

- Methot
- Olesniak
- Millar
- Bieksa
- McNabb
- McQuaid
- Stephen Johns
- Martinez


to name a but a few of the physical shutdown defenseman that according to some "canot play in this league anymore". 


While they are smart enough to run a PP, or have a heavy enough shot in Burns case, to contribute offensively, it can safely be said that their primary assignments are defending against the top scorers of the other team, not trying to toe-drag and dangle behind the other teams net shortly followed by coasting watching the other teams odd-man rush and/or break away because no ones there to stop it.


Sure I listed some superstars that are some of the highest players in the league up there, but I also threw in a few little to unknown ones as well.   If you go through the reports of of most NHL teams, you will see more shutdown/defensive defenseman on the current roster and in the systems than most would think or acknowledge existed.  This type of player doesn't get numbers and doesn't get much attention/hype/promotion except when the ones they are playing against aren't scoring, or a hit/fight extra, ergo like Milar  they get dubbed 'goons'. . .
[/quBuff,
    Some good dmen in that list but some total pylons too. And get Burns off of that list. He isn't close to being a shutdow dman. He is pathetic defensively. Keith doesnt belong on that list either. Especially batter this season. He was bad. Real bad.
   I really like some of those guys. Weber, Buff, Doughty and Hedman are all studs. You can put Pietrangelo in with those guys. I also love Kronwalls game. But his better days are behind him. Same with Chara.

[newtoCapsparty]

Is anyone concerned that Beagle may likely be a casualty this off season?  I quickly read through comments and have not seen much chatter about him.  I thought he was valuable (journeyman, grinder, great work/practice ethic)...but now I'm getting the sense that he's 'old' and there just isn't enough money to keep him plus the younger players who show potential.  Sad about it...hate to see players I personally like leave (spoken like a fan, of course, and not a member of the front office). 

[Maacoshark]

Is anyone concerned that Beagle may likely be a casualty this off season?  I quickly read through comments and have not seen much chatter about him.  I thought he was valuable (journeyman, grinder, great work/practice ethic)...but now I'm getting the sense that he's 'old' and there just isn't enough money to keep him plus the younger players who show potential.  Sad about it...hate to see players I personally like leave (spoken like a fan, of course, and not a member of the front office).

     We might still sign him. No chatter because he isnt a top tier player. I like the effort he puts into his game. But he is replaceable. Although we would miss him in the faceoff circle. I like him, just wish he had more skill. I'm not just talking offensively.

[BlackIce]

Holy cow, can Carlson give me a loan?  I was expecting the long term, but 8x8??? Yikees..

Really?  It was clear from the very beginning that this was the contract neighborhood in which he would be signed.  It was an absolute guarantee that if Carlson didn't resign with the Caps, someone else would have given him at least $8 million AAV for 7 years.

[DC_1908]

OK ... nice list.  First off let me say I'd love to have a bunch of these guys - but really, when you get down to it there are only a few tough guys on here that bring more OVERALL to the plate than Carlson.  Some might have .... years ago.  Chara, Webber, Kronwall, and Bieksa.  Others are pretty much the same or near the same guy as Carlson but you'll never get them away from their teams or get them for the same money AND no NMC.  Sutter, Hedman, Burns, Dougherty, Keith.  And for the second section of your list - well most of those guys don't even come close to being as good at being an all-around defender. Sure McQaid will drop the gloves but he won't have half as many points, a ton more penalty minutes (something a top-4 defender can't have) and isn't nearly as mobile - ie. can't even get around on the ice that well.   But I said shut-down guy right?  I know, I did ask for those names - but in this day and age that the current game is - every guy has to be well-rounded.  Carlson isn't perfect, I'll be the first to admit to it.  But the game you want to be played doesn't exist or did; decades ago.  But that second list I put up: Sutter, Hedman, Burns, Dougherty, Keith - in the minds of fans other teams, ie that doesn't watch Carlson 3 times a week, Carlson is probably a member of that list as well ... esp. after this year.  He's in his prime and getting better, little by little, every year.  We got him for market value - and we have him until we get rid of him or he retires.  So why, other than he isn't going to get into any fights, are you bitching?

Odd how you didnt bring up Olesniak, one of the top fighters in the league who "can skate, can't play, just fight" cracked the Hens starting line up and did a great job shutting us down. . .and for a 4th rounder too.

But back to Carlson, its because he is only a 4th forward.  The simple fact the he finally played resoectable D in the last 7 games cannot logically Trump the last 7 months of the season or the whole of he is career.

This new Carlson ‘is one of if not the D best in league”, is the result of the Cup highd the off season hype, this soon to be gone trend of the offensive Dman/4th forward, and that people who watch this team 3 times a week don’t remember what a good Dman.


How people can forget the years, including this regular season of anti-Carlson statements here and even on broadcasts?  Calling him out for loafing, bad passing, not blocking shots, letting the other team stand on Holtby because he won’t/can’t clear the crease?  Hell Maaco was almost rum out of here just for saying he was the best D we had.

But a few games with minimal mistakes, a bunch of TV coverage about being a UFA and everyone hops on the "Carlson is one of the best bandwagon"?   Like someone with all the faults above will play like he did in the last 7 games for 8 years?   How does this make sense?

Come on you're comparing him with Sutter and Burns now.  At the beginning of the playoffs you'd be laughing at anyone who said that.  Hell he isnt even matched up against the other teams leading scorer half the time.  The reason he has the points than them is that his primary role is offensive compensate for his mediocre defense, not because he is the best D man in the world.

People disagree with me now, but in 3-4yrs if not before people will hate this contract. 

[dpf1971]

Is anyone concerned that Beagle may likely be a casualty this off season?  I quickly read through comments and have not seen much chatter about him.  I thought he was valuable (journeyman, grinder, great work/practice ethic)...but now I'm getting the sense that he's 'old' and there just isn't enough money to keep him plus the younger players who show potential.  Sad about it...hate to see players I personally like leave (spoken like a fan, of course, and not a member of the front office).

I am confident, unless Beags wants otherwise, that he will be back.  Now we do have a serious list of UFA's and RFA's to look at but lets be honest, Beagle is damn near the top of the list.  Important RFA's - Wilson (he's the obvious #1 guy to resign off of both lists), Bowey, DSP, and O'Brien (I'm still hoping he turns into our 4th line left wing).  Important UFA's - Kempny, Jerabek, Chiasson, and I'd put Sill on there just depth and b/c he's a serious hard worker.  But out of the UFA's, Kempny is probably the only one getting looked at more than Beags - and he made league minimum last year, so you won't see him getting anything huge.  But the big thing to remember is this; we sold Orpik and Grubbie so that Carlson's resigning only really cost us $1 million against the Cap and of all of these guys listed, only Wilson made more than $2 million a year so you won't see Chiasson making $5 million or something else radically stupid.  Lastly though, remember - there are a few good UFA's out there too.  We have a decent chunk of money to sign what we need, we still might find a discount out there that wants to join the Cup Champs.

[DC_1908]

We have a bingo!


DC seems to think the path to the cup is with 4 lines of Tony Twist and 3 D pairings of Marty Mcsorley.


Not that I have any issues with tough guys.....love em, but you can't win with nothing, but tough guys.

So are you really confusing defense and strategy to only fighting, or is this just a Mickey Mouse way to try to discredit me for not being on the bandwagon?


Anyway. just causre I enjoy sending sensitive people off to their safe spaces (Oh no! this goes against the trend!  Mrt Bettmean doesn't want the game to be this mean! He wants all to be entertained and happy!)



heh I just live how his teammate immediately calls for the trainer while Kyte just lays there holding his head. . .

Be sure to read your "Last Post" thread while your in your in trauma after this display of Toxic Masculinity.  I made it easy to find for you.

[Maacoshark]

Because he is only a 4th forward.  The simple fact finally played resoectable D in the last 7 games cannot logically Trump the last 7 months.

This new Carlson ‘is one of if not the D best in league”, is the result of the Cup high, this soon to be gone trend of the offensive Dman/4th forward, and that people who watch this team 3 times a week don’t remember what a good Dman.


How people can forget the years, including this regular season of anti-Carlson statements here and even on broadcasts?  Calling him out for loafing, bad passing, not blocking shots, letting the other team stand on Holtby because he won’t/can’t clear the crease?  Hell Maaco was almost rum out of here just for saying he was the best D we had.

But a few games with minimal mistakes, a bunch of TV coverage about being a UFA and everyone hops on the "Carlson is one of the best bandwagon"?   Like someone with all the faults above will play like he did in the last 7 games for 8 years?   How does this make sense?

Come on you're comparing him with Sutter and Burns now.  At the beginning of the playoffs you'd be laughing at anyone who said that.  Hell he isnt even matched up against the other teams leading scorer half the time.

People disagree with me now, but in 3-4yrs if not before people will hate this contract.

     Sorry DC but I disagree with your assessment. Especially the 4th forward. Carlson is alot more than an offensive defenceman. Not sure why you have it engraved in your head that he is. I happen to like a lot of the guys on your list but not all if them are shutdown dmen. InfactmCarlson is better defensively than some of those players that you listed. Most of those guys play a more physical style but arent necessarily good defensively. Burns is far from a shutdown dman, so is Phanuef. I also found it odd that you have Keith on your list. He is more the type of dman that you dont like. Not a shutdown guy. He also isn't really a physical guy. He can be a bit dirty with his stick though. I figured you would like Seabrook more than Keith.
     I love the physical dmen but they dont all have to play like that. For some reason you have it in your head that Carlson is nothing more than a 4th forward. Like I said, without vCarlson we dont win the cup.

[DC_1908]

     Sorry DC but I disagree with your assessment. Especially the 4th forward. Carlson is alot more than an offensive defenceman. Not sure why you have it engraved in your head that he is. I happen to like a lot of the guys on your list but not all if them are shutdown dmen. InfactmCarlson is better defensively than some of those players that you listed. Most of those guys play a more physical style but arent necessarily good defensively. Burns is far from a shutdown dman, so is Phanuef. I also found it odd that you have Keith on your list. He is more the type of dman that you dont like. Not a shutdown guy. He also isn't really a physical guy. He can be a bit dirty with his stick though. I figured you would like Seabrook more than Keith.
     I love the physical dmen but they dont all have to play like that. For some reason you have it in your head that Carlson is nothing more than a 4th forward. Like I said, without vCarlson we dont win the cup.

I validated the majority of that list (that I came up with) with the only obectional public scouting report I
know of:


Keith Scouting Report


Then here is Carlsons, which supports much if what both of us say:


Exles at shutdown, vs efficient at shutdown

Who would you rather have against the other teams top scores, particularly in tie or with a lead?

[KitFisto]

Some of the guys on your list take themselves out of position just to try to lay a big hit. Not many players are "perfect", but Carlson's defense has gotten better than you give him credit for. Or do only fights and big hits count as playing defense? Did you like Alzner? I don't remember how you felt about him. He was very sound defensively,  but didn't lay big hits or fight. He'd lost a bit his last year here, but he was very sound most of his career.

[DC_1908]

Some of the guys on your list take themselves out of position just to try to lay a big hit. Not many players are "perfect", but Carlson's defense has gotten better than you give him credit for. Or do only fights and big hits count as playing defense? Did you like Alzner? I don't remember how you felt about him. He was very sound defensively,  but didn't lay big hits or fight. He'd lost a bit his last year here, but he was very sound most of his career.

I was an am a big Alzner fan.  That injury last year  took a toll on him, but before than he excellent against the other teams top scorers, blocks, not letting the goalie be screened,  and not committing turnovers.


I will prefer quiet consistent play like that over the high risk high reward of having a Dman routinely pinching, getting caught to deep in the offensive zone, making risky passes, or the other liabilities that come with using a defenseman as a large part of your offense (patricualrly when the forwards covering for them are not great defensively