Washington Capitals Fan Forum
Talk about Capitals hockey & more! => Washington Capitals & Other Hockey Discussion => Topic started by: zerofox on Saturday June 23, 2018, 10:19:10 AM Eastern
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I know some people here may not like GMBM, but I've been quite pleased with his work thus far. I feel like he's done a much better job at addressing holes in our roster. Even if we had not won the Cup, I still would have giving GMBM props for some of the moves he's made.
1) Signing Niskanen and Orpik - Yes these were deals with too much term and too much salary (especially for Orpik), but you can't deny that one glaring hole we had when McPhee left was on defense. MacLellan instantly snagged up two veteran defensemen in the FA market to help bolster our defense.
2) Trading for TJ Oshie - Great trade in my opinion. We got rid of a mediocre bottom 6 player (Brouwer) who was being used in a top 6 fashion, and exchanged him for a legit top 6 winger, which was another hole we needed to fill.
3) Signing Justin Williams - Sure we didn't win the Cup with Williams on our team, but he still provided us with a solid top 6 forward and solid veteran presence. He put in a few good years for us, and IMO this is a good move regardless of whether or not you win the Cup with him.
4) Dumping Brooks Laich - This contract was killing us. We had to give up Connor Carrick and a decent draft pick for it, but dumping this anchor of a contract was another big boost for us.
5) Trading for Lars Eller - We only lost a couple of 2nd round picks for up, but he was a pretty decent pick up. He's provided our 3rd line with a solid C, and he's also shown recently that he can step up on occasion as well.
6) Trading for Kevin Shattenkirk - I know, we didn't win the Cup despite this "win now" trade. But I still do give GMBM props for having the balls to pull this off. We had an already dominant regular season team and we tried to go over the hump with a blockbuster move. I would honestly make a trade like this 9/10 times.
7) Trading for Michal Kempny - He may not be the best defenseman, but he helped solidify our defense when we were struggling with a bunch of youngsters. He also performed well enough where I hope he's back next season.
8) Dumping Brooks Orpik - I was totally on board with this signing way back. Even though the term and dollars were too much, I felt like we absolutely needed the veteran defensive presence. However, Brooks Orpik at age 33-35 or whatever is different from Brooks Orpik at age 36-37+. I'm glad we were able to clear this cap hit away
At the end of the day, no one can deny that we won a Cup with MacLellan, that he's addressed glaring holes more aggressively than McPhee (for instance, McPhee was willing to let Brooks fucking Laich be our 2C for YEARS, whereas MacLellan shored up our defense big time as his first move as GM), and he's also made another moves that have truly bolstered our roster and given us that "win now" opportunity. I never felt like that with McPhee. I always felt like McPhee would look for middle of the road players for cheap, and they rarely panned out. I'm happy to have BMac on our side.
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Zerofox, I agree completely with your assessment of MacLellan. I think he has done a terrific job and should be given a lot of the credit for the team winning the Cup. He sees the holes that need to be filled and goes out and gets the players needed to fill them. He has had to make some difficult decisions but isn’t afraid to make them. I have complete trust in BMac, he has a great background. He played 10 years in the NHL and won a Stanley Cup with Calgary. After his career ended he went into the business world but then his good friend George McPhee got him back into hockey and he became a scout for the Capitals and he eventually became the Assistant General Manager and now General Manager. He has come up through the ranks and I think his experience really helps him unlike some of these young whippersnappers who think they know everything based on analytics. The Pheonix GM is not even 30 years old.
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I've been happy too. Some still praise McPhail while he did squat to put this team over the top in 16 years. BM built a squad that won a cup in 4 years and people think he sucks. Go figure....Sure, some of McPhee's core pieces are still here, but he couldn't get the right mix. BM did it.
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I've been happy too. Some still praise McPhail while he did squat to put this team over the top in 16 years. BM built a squad that won a cup in 4 years and people think he sucks. Go figure....Sure, some of McPhee's core pieces are still here, but he couldn't get the right mix. BM did it.
Well, those of you happy with GMBM, good for you. And those who aren't, you'd better learn to live with it. Because if GMGM lasted 15 years with this organization, how long do you think MacLellan will last, now that he's won a Cup? Not to mention, I think he handles the media extremely well, and they like him because he gives real information. That has cascading effects on MacLellan's shelf life, because the media will portray him positively as a result, the fan base as a whole will be satisfied if the storylines about the team are positive, and if fans are happy they tend to spend money, which makes Ted Leonsis VERY happy.
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All I know is that Grubauer AND Orpik for a 2nd round pick sucks. Grubauer for a 2nd rounder would suck. Orpik led the entire league in the playoffs with a +17 in 20 games and brought a real physical presence. As of now, they have none on the backline. This is hardly an auspicious start to the post season whether they sign Carlson or not. They better have some plans for adding a physical defenseman.
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I know some people here may not like GMBM, but I've been quite pleased with his work thus far. I feel like he's done a much better job at addressing holes in our roster. Even if we had not won the Cup, I still would have giving GMBM props for some of the moves he's made.
1) Signing Niskanen and Orpik - Yes these were deals with too much term and too much salary (especially for Orpik), but you can't deny that one glaring hole we had when McPhee left was on defense. MacLellan instantly snagged up two veteran defensemen in the FA market to help bolster our defense.
2) Trading for TJ Oshie - Great trade in my opinion. We got rid of a mediocre bottom 6 player (Brouwer) who was being used in a top 6 fashion, and exchanged him for a legit top 6 winger, which was another hole we needed to fill.
3) Signing Justin Williams - Sure we didn't win the Cup with Williams on our team, but he still provided us with a solid top 6 forward and solid veteran presence. He put in a few good years for us, and IMO this is a good move regardless of whether or not you win the Cup with him.
4) Dumping Brooks Laich - This contract was killing us. We had to give up Connor Carrick and a decent draft pick for it, but dumping this anchor of a contract was another big boost for us.
5) Trading for Lars Eller - We only lost a couple of 2nd round picks for up, but he was a pretty decent pick up. He's provided our 3rd line with a solid C, and he's also shown recently that he can step up on occasion as well.
6) Trading for Kevin Shattenkirk - I know, we didn't win the Cup despite this "win now" trade. But I still do give GMBM props for having the balls to pull this off. We had an already dominant regular season team and we tried to go over the hump with a blockbuster move. I would honestly make a trade like this 9/10 times.
7) Trading for Michal Kempny - He may not be the best defenseman, but he helped solidify our defense when we were struggling with a bunch of youngsters. He also performed well enough where I hope he's back next season.
8) Dumping Brooks Orpik - I was totally on board with this signing way back. Even though the term and dollars were too much, I felt like we absolutely needed the veteran defensive presence. However, Brooks Orpik at age 33-35 or whatever is different from Brooks Orpik at age 36-37+. I'm glad we were able to clear this cap hit away
At the end of the day, no one can deny that we won a Cup with MacLellan, that he's addressed glaring holes more aggressively than McPhee (for instance, McPhee was willing to let Brooks fucking Laich be our 2C for YEARS, whereas MacLellan shored up our defense big time as his first move as GM), and he's also made another moves that have truly bolstered our roster and given us that "win now" opportunity. I never felt like that with McPhee. I always felt like McPhee would look for middle of the road players for cheap, and they rarely panned out. I'm happy to have BMac on our side.
People like him because he makes moves that Dickless wants with entertainment being the priority.
The result is people who want entertainment swooning with man-crushes, and the zealots of The Church of Monumental regarding him as the Messiah that can walk on Red Kool-Aid.
Sure, he was the GM when we won “a” cup. So his team won 16 our of 28 in 24 games, hate to wreck the drama but that’s really all it was.
Within the past three weeks, the zealots and others have all but forgotten the times where the same team that won 16-24, was absolutely god-awful, so bad there own local commentators called them out for the same reasons over and over again. Then even in the playoffs this SAME TEAM looked like it couldn’t even of won the Fairfax Rec League Championship.
Monumental actually even warned us not to have high expectations, that this was a rebuild. Hell they where even ready to fire/not renew the coach after the playoffs because they were sure as the rest of us that it would be a quick postseason and they needed a scapegoat.
Make NO mistake Dickless, GMBetaMale, and Monumental put out a team that even they didn’t have hopes for. It was not some highly data driven lineup like The Pats do every year. The roster had to do a complete 180 of their mentality and approach for god-sake. The team that played the last 7 games, clearly was NOT the same team the 99 games before.
To credit this front office for building a cup winning team is just layman syllogistic logic through an objective lens that is devoid of data and correctly done analysis for entertainment and feelings.
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I would only comment that claims of analytic skill and extreme hyperbole don't mix very well.
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"6) Trading for Kevin Shattenkirk - I know, we didn't win the Cup despite this "win now" trade. But I still do give GMBM props for having the balls to pull this off. We had an already dominant regular season team and we tried to go over the hump with a blockbuster move. I would honestly make a trade like this 9/10 times. "
Other than that, all worked out very well.
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"6) Trading for Kevin Shattenkirk - I know, we didn't win the Cup despite this "win now" trade. But I still do give GMBM props for having the balls to pull this off. We had an already dominant regular season team and we tried to go over the hump with a blockbuster move. I would honestly make a trade like this 9/10 times. "
Other than that, all worked out very well.
I hated that fucking trade. There were rumors the Caps were going to trade for him a couple weeks before it happened. When I heard that I was pissed. I saw him play with the Blues and the guy was a fucking joke.
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I hated that fucking trade. There were rumors the Caps were going to trade for him a couple weeks before it happened. When I heard that I was pissed. I saw him play with the Blues and the guy was a fucking joke.
Yes, instead of improving the team, we've got exactly opposite result.
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Yes, instead of improving the team, we've got exactly opposite result.
Do you dislike Shattenkirk or do you not like the idea of GMBM trying to grab the "best" rental asset out there before the trade deadline?
Just curious. Because I'm not saying I love Shattenkirk or that I think he's the best defenseman out there, but I definitely would aim to grab the best rental asset to put us over the top.
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Do you dislike Shattenkirk or do you not like the idea of GMBM trying to grab the "best" rental asset out there before the trade deadline?
Just curious. Because I'm not saying I love Shattenkirk or that I think he's the best defenseman out there, but I definitely would aim to grab the best rental asset to put us over the top.
That logic makes no sense, and is evidence as to why we sucked with Shattenkirk in the playoffs and why this year, without doing what your think we should in that aspect, we ended up winning.
Playoff success is about chemistry, not getting the best players available. Is there times you need to get the best players available? Yes. But look at even team drafting, all of the outlets were covering this before the draft last night. In years past, like a decade plus ago, you would have to draft BPA. Drafting for positional or team need, or character reasons was just so less common. That has changed.
Kempny ended up being a better fit for us than Shattenkirk, it's as simple as that. Shattenkirk may be a better player, but our team didn't need more players with the assets and weaknesses of a player that Shattenkirk brought. We already had Carlson, at the time and Orlov. We had enough risky defenders who may not be as steady in there own end. Kempny was the reverse of those players, who instead of being good offensively and okay defensively, he was good defensively and okay offensively. It ended up being just the comfort type of player to fill out our top four, and have them be a good top four for the playoffs.
This is the kind of stuff that DC is talking about though. How name recognition and perceived "value" automatically mean to some fans "better." Patrick Kane is better than TJ Oshie. But the Caps needed TJ Oshie far more than they need a player of Patrick Kane's ilk. Why? Because we needed a skill guy who played his heart out like Jay Beagle. We needed another on ice leader, to help change the mentality of this team. It's another case of why you can't just look at pure value or perceived quality of talent. It's about much more than that.
And it's the only area where I'm perfectly fine saying BMGM deserves credit when it comes to building this roster. For me it wasn't just that he began to fill holes that we had lacked. By shoring up the defense and prioritizing center depth. But I also think DC has a point when he suggests that it wasn't all built by this intention. The Shattenkirk deal going south seems to me more what BMGM was thinking, make big deals/trades and stick with your guns.
I think it just so happened, that the coaching staff's interest in certain players, as for sure BMGM wasn't making those decisions in a vaccum regarding Nisky, Orpik, Eller, DSP, Oshie. That the coaching staff and scouts acknowledged the tangible assets some of these players brought to the table. This season seemed to me like BMGM just kind of rolled with what he had, and due to circumstance that ended up surrounding our main core group with some of the best, hardest workers in the depth chart we were going to find. When you combine that with the burning desire of some of our core players, notably Ovi? It simply shocked teams. It's how you get the first Cup win in the bank.
So all in all I'd say BMGM probably doesn't deserve that much credit for everything. I think there is some smart moves he made, but I also think a bunch of his moves were kind of just "stepped" into as well. The only reason I have faith in our coaching staff is because I know how involved Rierden and co were with Trotz. But I think players and coaching staff deserve far more credit for this team than anyone else. Clearly BMGM didn't think Chandler Stephenson was an answer for us heading into the season, but the play of himself and the coaches for believing in him is a big reason he succeeded so well in the playoffs.
It's moments like this, where we could end up overpaying for Carlson and hamstringing our roster, and dealing with filling holes again now that BMGM really gets to be judged.
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Do you dislike Shattenkirk or do you not like the idea of GMBM trying to grab the "best" rental asset out there before the trade deadline?
Just curious. Because I'm not saying I love Shattenkirk or that I think he's the best defenseman out there, but I definitely would aim to grab the best rental asset to put us over the top.
How was Shattenkirk the best rental for our team that year. The last thing we needed was another offensive defenceman that was far worse defensively than anyone we already had. He didnt improve our pp and the rest of his game is a liability. It was a bad trade for a rental player. It may have cost us a cup. Anyone that thought Shattenkirk was a good pickup didnt know how weak his game was.
Management got too hung up on adding another offense only player on a team that was already pretty loaded offensively. We should have added a defensive player.
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All I know is that Grubauer AND Orpik for a 2nd round pick sucks. Grubauer for a 2nd rounder would suck. Orpik led the entire league in the playoffs with a +17 in 20 games and brought a real physical presence. As of now, they have none on the backline. This is hardly an auspicious start to the post season whether they sign Carlson or not. They better have some plans for adding a physical defenseman.
The Caps needed the cap space freed up. This wasn't a bad trade in that regard. Avs have put Orpik on waivers, maybe we can get him back on the cheap. Caps are gonna need his D for another year or two.
I know I said it last year. But rentals suck. They rarely work out, and last season, '16-'17, they had Shatty replace Schmitty. That wasn't an upgrade. It wasn't even an even swap.
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Do you dislike Shattenkirk or do you not like the idea of GMBM trying to grab the "best" rental asset out there before the trade deadline?
Just curious. Because I'm not saying I love Shattenkirk or that I think he's the best defenseman out there, but I definitely would aim to grab the best rental asset to put us over the top.
So by best you mean “the most talked about and most popular free agent at the time”. Because the hype for him in free agency was the peak of Shattenkraps career.
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How was Shattenkirk the best rental for our team that year. The last thing we needed was another offensive defenceman that was far worse defensively than anyone we already had. He didnt improve our pp and the rest of his game is a liability. It was a bad trade for a rental player. It may have cost us a cup. Anyone that thought Shattenkirk was a good pickup didnt know how weak his game was.
Management got too hung up on adding another offense only player on a team that was already pretty loaded offensively. We should have added a defensive player.
Yes, that's how feel, too. Thanks for writing up!
Although I can admire GM's best intentions, but outcome was negative. I also think he learned from his mistakes.
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I will only comment that passive-agressive attempts to discredit data is the first indicator the opposition can not defend, let alone beat your analysis.
The pattern is very easy to see
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I've never seen so much bitching and complaining from the fans of a team that just won a title in my life. Being happy you won means you're satisfied with a team who only cares about entertainment and not winning? Are you fucking kidding me? Yes, it took the Caps 13 seasons into Ovechkin's career to finally win it. Guess what? If McPhail was still here there would still be no cup because many of the players that helped get us there wouldn't fucking be here. Some of you folks wouldn't give them any credit if they won 5 straight cups.
The banner hasn't even gone up and some of you already pissed. It's fucking unbelievable. You could be Blues or Leafs fans who haven't won in how long? You could be CBJ fans who've never won a single playoff series in 19 years. We just won the cup and you're still crying like we lost in the 1st round again. I think some of you WISH we had just so you cold be "right". FFS......
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I've never seen so much bitching and complaining from the fans of a team that just won a title in my life. Being happy you won means you're satisfied with a team who only cares about entertainment and not winning? Are you fucking kidding me? Yes, it took the Caps 13 seasons into Ovechkin's career to finally win it. Guess what? If McPhail was still here there would still be no cup because many of the players that helped get us there wouldn't fucking be here. Some of you folks wouldn't give them any credit if they won 5 straight cups.
The banner hasn't even gone up and some of you already pissed. It's fucking unbelievable. You could be Blues or Leafs fans who haven't won in how long? You could be CBJ fans who've never won a single playoff series in 19 years. We just won the cup and you're still crying like we lost in the 1st round again. I think some of you WISH we had just so you cold be "right". FFS......
I don't see how you get that we are being "pissed". We aren't. We simply aren't viewing are team with rose colored glasses. We are looking at the turnover and situation we are in and trying to be reasonable with expectations for the future, and analyzing decisions made.
Having the opinion that management messed up letting Trotz go for example isn't being a bad fan or not celebrating and enjoying the Cup win. You shouldn't have to be "only love my team all the time" post a Cup win or be considered a traitor for being pissy.
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I don't see how you get that we are being "pissed". We aren't. We simply aren't viewing are team with rose colored glasses. We are looking at the turnover and situation we are in and trying to be reasonable with expectations for the future, and analyzing decisions made.
Having the opinion that management messed up letting Trotz go for example isn't being a bad fan or not celebrating and enjoying the Cup win. You shouldn't have to be "only love my team all the time" post a Cup win or be considered a traitor for being pissy.
Have you ever seen me post? I'll never be accused of wearing rose colored glasses. My point is simply that WE WON so MAYBE management knows more than you seem to think they do. A GM who couldn't get it done gets praise while the one who won it gets criticized regularly. Clearly they must know SOMETHING right?
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Have you ever seen me post? I'll never be accused of wearing rose colored glasses. My point is simply that WE WON so MAYBE management knows more than you seem to think they do. A GM who couldn't get it done gets praise while the one who won it gets criticized regularly. Clearly they must know SOMETHING right?
We’re saying that this Cup win is not due to the GM and upper management. If anything, it’s in spite of them.
These last 16 wins, and last 7 games, had next to nothing to do with GMBetaMale. If it did, the previous 100 would have provided support for that argument
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Okay so I'll admit perhaps I'm wrong about Shattenkirk, and maybe I was too easily convinced by the hype around him. He seemed like the biggest name rental guy available at the time and even though I agree we didn't need another offensive Dman, I was just excited that we had the guts to make a big splash at the time. But yeah I can agree that a big name rental doesn't always pan out. This year we plugged holes with under the radar moves, while teams likes Boston (Nash) and TB (McDonaugh) failed to win a Cup despite big moves.
But putting aside the Shattenkirk issue, I still give GMBM a lot of credit for his moves thus far. The teams we've had the past few years I feel like are superior to any team we had during the McPhee era. He deserves credit for that.
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Have you ever seen me post? I'll never be accused of wearing rose colored glasses. My point is simply that WE WON so MAYBE management knows more than you seem to think they do. A GM who couldn't get it done gets praise while the one who won it gets criticized regularly. Clearly they must know SOMETHING right?
Just because we are critical of BMGM doesn't mean we aren't also giving him credit where it's due. I have no idea what your talking about in reference to another GM, who was giving another GM credit? There was some McPhee praise during the playoffs and debate over in in a thread here. That has nothing to do with being realistic regarding BMGM. He himself thought this could be a year we missed the playoffs. He had no faith in our roster or coaching staff, or our farm. It was Trotz and the coaching staff finding solutions in Hershey that paid off as well as getting some grit depth support.
I don't get why you have to boil the discussion down to simple platitudes though. Why does it have to be, either management knows more than I think they do or they don't know as much as I think they do. That isn't at the heart of the debate. It's looking at specific moves and actions and judging those decisions. BMGM in his tenure here very much has had an aura of "make big bold moves" and it just so happens that some of those bold moves thankfully involved players with character. But I also think coaching staff has a lot to factor in, because they wanted more character guys and would constantly bench more skilled ones. Burt, Vrana, Bowey, the list goes on of the depth guys that sat for Walker, Gersich, Stephenson, Chiasson. The evidence simply isn't there to say "BMGM clearly knew what he was doing when he did X".
Stating that doesn't somehow undo the credit he does deserve, specifically as it relates to Nisky/Orpik, Oshie, and Eller. But again those are situations where as mentioned, those trades only seem so right in hindsight. Up to that point we had tried a lot of options to kickstart this teams mentality heading into the playoffs. There wasn't really any evidence before hand that it would be these group to help do that, only that we knew going in some of those names were harder workers/more known to shown up in the post-season. I think that is part of the problem is that seeing a GM who thought he had a struggling team, and fans who thought the same go all the way makes one wonder if it isn't just management but fans who are misguided about what it takes to win.
That said, I thought based on the prospect info we could go on that we had a fine draft. Again good and bad decisions don't happen in a bubble, and it remains to be seen how big of a blow losing Trotz is. For all we know we face the Isles in the first round and Trotz is a key to their coaching staff in defeating us. One bad decision can outweigh 5 good ones. Ultimately having question marks in relation to management here is still absolutely realistic post a Cup win. And even if we were to repeat, let's assume that happens. That doesn't necessarily mean it'll be due entirely to our GM either. Again the "maturity" factor of our roster is something nobody accounted for, and if we do repeat I'm going to argue that it'll likely have something to do with it.
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Okay so I'll admit perhaps I'm wrong about Shattenkirk, and maybe I was too easily convinced by the hype around him. He seemed like the biggest name rental guy available at the time and even though I agree we didn't need another offensive Dman, I was just excited that we had the guts to make a big splash at the time. But yeah I can agree that a big name rental doesn't always pan out. This year we plugged holes with under the radar moves, while teams likes Boston (Nash) and TB (McDonaugh) failed to win a Cup despite big moves.
But putting aside the Shattenkirk issue, I still give GMBM a lot of credit for his moves thus far. The teams we've had the past few years I feel like are superior to any team we had during the McPhee era. He deserves credit for that.
Why?
You’re assuming the GM is the totalitarian architect of the Caps. While that’s true with some teams, it sure as hell isnt with The Caps. Just look at the Trotz thread.
Monumental Entertainment decided that “to have a chance” to win a Cup, is more profitable than saying “we will win a Cup”. That’s why it took 10yrs to catch lightning in bottle.
Mind you, without Ted, Dickless, and Monumental, “McPhail” took an expansion team in one year to where the Caps had only been once in over 40.
Without Ted, Dickless, and Monumental stepping on GMGMs toes, this certainly wouldn’t of been our first Cup
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We’re saying that this Cup win is not due to the GM and upper management. If anything, it’s in spite of them.
These last 16 wins, and last 7 games, had next to nothing to do with GMBetaMale. If it did, the previous 100 would have provided support for that argument
And I'm saying you're wrong. You hate management so much that no amount of winning will change your mind. Thinking BM had nothing to do with this cup is ABSOLUTELY LAUGHABLE at best and flat out stupid at worst. He added the pieces that pushed this team to where McPhail couldn't in 16 years. Failure after failure by McPhail is met with your praise. Lousy coach after lousy coach and you try to claim it's not on McPhail, but Ted made those decisions. To be blunt, you are so full of dislike for management that NOTHING will change your mind.
You call BM "beta", but your precious McPhee wouldn't add a physical defenseman for over a decade if his life depended on it.
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And I'm saying you're wrong. You hate management so much that no amount of winning will change your mind. Thinking BM had nothing to do with this cup is ABSOLUTELY LAUGHABLE at best and flat out stupid at worst. He added the pieces that pushed this team to where McPhail couldn't in 16 years. Failure after failure by McPhail is met with your praise. Lousy coach after lousy coach and you try to claim it's not on McPhail, but Ted made those decisions. To be blunt, you are so full of dislike for management that NOTHING will change your mind.
You call BM "beta", but your precious McPhee wouldn't add a physical defenseman for over a decade if his life depended on it.
Something could change my mind, how about at least 3 Cups in 6 years?
You’re so high on the fact that we “finally” aren’t one of the teams that could not win 4 best of 7 series, that you forgot why it took 40+ yesrs in the first place, let alone that was the 10th year of the 3yr “have a chance” plan
(Oh, and GMGM went out and got England and Sbisa, both of which could snap the necks of any Caps D man. But given the GMs don’t have much control, that’s not the only reason he’s called BetaMale)
Do you seriously think GMBetaMale could of taken VGK to the final? If so, would the Caps have lasted 5 games against the Messiah?
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Why?
You’re assuming the GM is the totalitarian architect of the Caps. While that’s true with some teams, it sure as hell isnt with The Caps. Just look at the Trotz thread.
Monumental Entertainment decided that “to have a chance” to win a Cup, is more profitable than saying “we will win a Cup”. That’s why it took 10yrs to catch lightning in bottle.
Mind you, without Ted, Dickless, and Monumental, “McPhail” took an expansion team in one year to where the Caps had only been once in over 40.
Without Ted, Dickless, and Monumental stepping on GMGMs toes, this certainly wouldn’t of been our first Cup
Do you think that VGK's success was due to McPhee or due to how the expansion draft was structured? Could another GM have done a similar job if they were allowed to build a team from scratch by picking players from the other teams?
Yes McPhee "took" an expansion team to the finals in one year when the Caps have only been there twice in 40+ years. But the expansion allowed McPhee to fully construct a roster from scratch with a more favorable expansion structure, which is not something MacLellan had the ability to do. On the other hand, McLellan achieved in 4 years what McPhee couldn't in 16, and they did it under more comparable conditions.
All we have to compare right now is McPhee vs. MacLellan as GMs of the Capitals, in which case I'd take McLellan's 1 Stanley Cup/2 President's Trophies/4 straight playoff appearances in 4 years over McPhee's 0 Stanley Cups/1 President's Trophy/10 playoff appearances in 16 years any day. It doesn't make sense to speculate if MacLellan would have been as successful with VGK, but the facts are MacLellan did in four years what McPhee couldn't do in 16.
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Do you think that VGK's success was due to McPhee or due to how the expansion draft was structured? Could another GM have done a similar job if they were allowed to build a team from scratch by picking players from the other teams?
Yes McPhee "took" an expansion team to the finals in one year when the Caps have only been there twice in 40+ years. But the expansion allowed McPhee to fully construct a roster from scratch with a more favorable expansion structure, which is not something MacLellan had the ability to do. On the other hand, McLellan achieved in 4 years what McPhee couldn't in 16, and they did it under more comparable conditions.
All we have to compare right now is McPhee vs. MacLellan as GMs of the Capitals, in which case I'd take McLellan's 1 Stanley Cup/2 President's Trophies/4 straight playoff appearances in 4 years over McPhee's 0 Stanley Cups/1 President's Trophy/10 playoff appearances in 16 years any day.
An excellent example of syllogistic “logic”. The messiah picture you’re trying to create isn’t working.
I really hope you’re drinking good stuff tonight and not just the Tedsville KoolAid.
The bigger picture is Monumental wanted to market “have a chance”, and sell that more than winning multiple Cups.
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An excellent example of syllogistic “logic”. The messiah picture you’re trying to create isn’t working.
I really hope you’re drinking good stuff tonight and not just the Tedsville KoolAid.
The bigger picture is Monumental wanted to market “have a chance”, and sell that more than winning multiple Cups.
So is your gripe more with Ted and Dick Patrick? If so I still don't see why you hate GMBM so much.
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So is your gripe more with Ted and Dick Patrick? If so I still don't see why you hate GMBM so much.
I know you don’t. He’s entertaining.
Just look at his trade and UFA signing history. That’s all you need to see that GMs and agents think of him as the red-headed step child they can bully into doing what they want.
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I know you don’t. He’s entertaining.
Just look at his trade and UFA signing history. That’s all you need to see that GMs and agents think of him as the red-headed step child they can bully into doing what they want.
As opposed to GMGM who made moves such as Forsberg for Erat and Latta? How is McPhee superior?
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I know you don’t. He’s entertaining.
Just look at his trade and UFA signing history. That’s all you need to see that GMs and agents think of him as the red-headed step child they can bully into doing what they want.
I think you are being a little hard on GMBM. I dont agree with every decision he has made. Overall he actually hasn't done a bad job.
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Something could change my mind, how about at least 3 Cups in 6 years?
You’re so high on the fact that we “finally” aren’t one of the teams that could not win 4 best of 7 series, that you forgot why it took 40+ yesrs in the first place, let alone that was the 10th year of the 3yr “have a chance” plan
(Oh, and GMGM went out and got England and Sbisa, both of which could snap the necks of any Caps D man. But given the GMs don’t have much control, that’s not the only reason he’s called BetaMale)
Do you seriously think GMBetaMale could of taken VGK to the final? If so, would the Caps have lasted 5 games against the Messiah?
3 cups in 6 years? Yeah, because every team got to draft in the top 3 how many straight years like the Pens or Hawks? How many teams outside those 2 and the 90s Wings do that? So, I assume since the answer is nearly none that you think every GM in the NHL sucks?
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3 cups in 6 years? Yeah, because every team got to draft in the top 3 how many straight years like the Pens or Hawks? How many teams outside those 2 and the 90s Wings do that? So, I assume since the answer is nearly none that you think every GM in the NHL sucks?
Is that to hard for the Beta Male?
I think you realize that this team and orginization is not good enough to do that. But why would they even try to when they can rake in the cash with “have a chance” and fans take 6 if not 16 games of finally playing not only right, but the games of thier lives as a divine message that the greatest team ever was built?
It’s a very romantic and entertaining narrative, and entertainment sells
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As opposed to GMGM who made moves such as Forsberg for Erat and Latta? How is McPhee superior?
:rofl: Bring the the data and history of that trade (which your messiah there voted for too by the way). [font=vand all the answers are apparent. Hell for shits and giggles compare it to the Shattenkrap trade and the answer will be more evident.
I also bet you 10 to 1 you’d of said FFF for Shattenkrap would of been a great that just didn’t work out
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I think you are being a little hard on GMBM. I dont agree with every decision he has made. Overall he actually hasn't done a bad job.
Ya I know it looks, but unlike most, I haven’t completed changed my mind based on 6-7 games like many have.
But in regards to this thread: when going into a season warning fans of low expectations, particularly after a brutal offseason, when that team plays some of the worst misrake filled, lazy hockey ever seen in the NHL, a team that was written off in the playoffs (and rightfully so) for the above reasons, then makes a complete 180 of style and mentality to win a Cup. . . It’s easy to see the Cup was inspite of, not because of.
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Ya I know it looks, but unlike most, I haven’t completed changed my mind based on 6-7 games like many have.
But in regards to this thread: when going into a season warning fans of low expectations, particularly after a brutal offseason, when that team plays some of the worst misrake filled, lazy hockey ever seen in the NHL, a team that was written off in the playoffs (and rightfully so) for the above reasons, then makes a complete 180 of style and mentality to win a Cup. . . It’s easy to see the Cup was inspite of, not because of.
I'll be honest I felt the same way about management. I changed my tune a bit. Not just because of the success but because of the changes that were made this season. Bringing in role players and calling up some youngsters from Hershey. Of course these moves were made because of the lack if cap space. If we had more Cap space we would have targeted different types of players and it probably would have failed. The only reason we had guys like Stephenson, DSP, Chaisson, Djoos,Bowey, Kempny and so on in our lineup was because that was what we could fit under the salary cap. So I wouldn't call GMBM brilliant. We did what we could with the money we had and got lucky.
But I will give him credit. After the Shittenkirk deal I was pretty hard on him but he has redeemed himself a but since then.
BTW I like the deal we made sending Orpik and Grubauer packing. A 2nd round isn't much in return but the mist important thing was getting out of the Orpik contract. I'm not disappointed to see Grubauer gone. Now the Grubauer should be our starter debate is over. Sorry guys but I just dont think Grubauer is very good.
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For the record I dont like the way management handled the Trotz situation. Pretty sure management had already decided they were going in another direction. The Caps winning the cup made that situation a bit more difficult.
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It is hard to fault management with respect to Trotz. By the terms of his contract he received a two year extension at a modest increase in salary for winning the Cup. Management was willing to live up to that but Trotz wanted more money and a longer term. Management was not willing to meet Trotz’ demands and so they let him out of his contract. They didn’t have to do that, they could have done what DC advocated and held him to his contract.
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Is that to hard for the Beta Male?
I think you realize that this team and orginization is not good enough to do that. But why would they even try to when they can rake in the cash with “have a chance” and fans take 6 if not 16 games of finally playing not only right, but the games of thier lives as a divine message that the greatest team ever was built?
Ya the Pens had 2 first overall picks and 2 second overall picks in a span of a few years.
It worked for them but it doesnt always work out like that. Ask the Oilers or the Nordiques back in the day.
It’s a very romantic and entertaining narrative, and entertainment sells
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It is hard to fault management with respect to Trotz. By the terms of his contract he received a two year extension at a modest increase in salary for winning the Cup. Management was willing to live up to that but Trotz wanted more money and a longer term. Management was not willing to meet Trotz’ demands and so they let him out of his contract. They didn’t have to do that, they could have done what DC advocated and held him to his contract.
Like I said management had already made their decision on Trotz long ago. Infact I wouldn't have been surprised if Trotz accepted the deal he wouldn't have been fired in the near future anyway.
Apparently they were close to firing him during the season.
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Teams W/L in the finals and years
Vegas 1/4 - 1 year
Caps 4/5 - 43 years
Blues 0/12 - 51 years
Sigh. In one year vegas accomplishes something a team consisting of gretzky, hull, macinnis, pronger, and grant fuhr couldn't. (Lost in game 7 round 2)
(They've never been to the 4th round of the playoffs...back when only 12 teams played there was only 2 rounds of playoffs)
You guys just won the cup for the 1st time ever and you're getting into arguments about why ur GM is bad/good.
I mean, just a little perspective is all my post is about. Carry on with your stanley cup banners and parades while i worry about a GM over paying for a jeff skinner or ryan o reilly.....
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Teams W/L in the finals and years
Vegas 1/4 - 1 year
Caps 4/5 - 43 years
Blues 0/12 - 51 years
Sigh. In one year vegas accomplishes something a team consisting of gretzky, hull, macinnis, pronger, and grant fuhr couldn't. (Lost in game 7 round 2)
(They've never been to the 4th round of the playoffs...back when only 12 teams played there was only 2 rounds of playoffs)
You guys just won the cup for the 1st time ever and you're getting into arguments about why ur GM is bad/good.
I mean, just a little perspective is all my post is about. Carry on with your stanley cup banners and parades while i worry about a GM over paying for a jeff skinner or ryan o reilly.....
Before he was your GM, he was our GM, so don't feign surprise that he is still a topic of discussion both for what he accomplished, and what he didn't accomplish.
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Before he was your GM, he was our GM, so don't feign surprise that he is still a topic of discussion both for what he accomplished, and what he didn't accomplish.
He’s talking about The Blues, not VGK
I know where he’s coming from though, I’m a Lions fan. You don’t get lower than that
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You guys just won the cup for the 1st time ever and you're getting into arguments about why ur GM is bad/good.
I mean, just a little perspective is all my post is about. Carry on with your stanley cup banners and parades while i worry about a GM over paying for a jeff skinner or ryan o reilly.....
Ozzie - after growing up in STL, I would like nothing better than the Blues winning the Cup next year.
I actually think your GM has done ok. He fleeced the Caps and dumped that miserable dog Shattenkirk on us. I think that not only did Shat stink, especially in the playoffs, but I suspect he upset the locker room chemistry and was the major reason we did not make it to the Finals last year.
I also think your GM was smart to get something in return for Stasny. The Blues were not going to win last year and now they very well could re-sign him.
So, now that the Caps have a Cup, next year I say Let’s Go Blues! Maybe a Caps-Blues Finals.
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He’s talking about The Blues, not VGK
I know where he’s coming from though, I’m a Lions fan. You don’t get lower than that
Lions fan? Ouch that's a rough one.
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He’s talking about The Blues, not VGK
I know where he’s coming from though, I’m a Lions fan. You don’t get lower than that
My bad - missed that. Thanks for clarifying.
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Ozzie - after growing up in STL, I would like nothing better than the Blues winning the Cup next year.
I actually think your GM has done ok. He fleeced the Caps and dumped that miserable dog Shattenkirk on us. I think that not only did Shat stink, especially in the playoffs, but I suspect he upset the locker room chemistry and was the major reason we did not make it to the Finals last year.
I also think your GM was smart to get something in return for Stasny. The Blues were not going to win last year and now they very well could re-sign him.
So, now that the Caps have a Cup, next year I say Let’s Go Blues! Maybe a Caps-Blues Finals.
Blues wont be making the playoffs for atleast another year or two, but good to know we got fans hoping for us.
As ive told others, Armstrong isn't the worst gm out there....thats what george mcphee is for lol
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Like I said management had already made their decision on Trotz long ago. Infact I wouldn't have been surprised if Trotz accepted the deal he wouldn't have been fired in the near future anyway.
Apparently they were close to firing him during the season.
That is the rumor. Apparently this season was a write off. If your boss is on the short list, do you give a damn what he says? So who motivated the players this season? Ovechkin? I would like to believe that.
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He’s talking about The Blues, not VGK
I know where he’s coming from though, I’m a Lions fan. You don’t get lower than that
Luckily the Lions won't be alone in the lost every game section
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Luckily the Lions won't be alone in the lost every game section
Hell they can’t even do that right 🤣
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Lions fan? Ouch that's a rough one.
Yeah... I feel for Lions' fans. The way their organization jacked Barry Sanders (THE greatest RB of all time) around...it seems like karma.
It'll wear off eventually. The Blues (after tampering with scott stevens and losing SEVEN 1st rnd draft picks) then the Mike Keenan fiasco....sadly I think our karma hasn't hit the worst of it yet... :-\
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We’re saying that this Cup win is not due to the GM and upper management. If anything, it’s in spite of them.
These last 16 wins, and last 7 games, had next to nothing to do with GMBetaMale. If it did, the previous 100 would have provided support for that argument
I got to call Boshee on this.... By the statement above you are saying Oshee, Eller, Orpik, Nisky had nothing to do with the last 16 wins.
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Mac has been better than I had hoped. But he hasn't been flawless. I thought he should have exposed MoJo and not Schmidt to the Expansion Draft. But he recovered nicely with the Kempny find at the trade deadline. Other moves at the trade deadline - from Glencross to Shattenkirk - bombed, so he needs to improve there. But unlike McPhee, he hasn't made a 'brain dead' move like moving Forsberg out for Erat and Latta (as much as I enjoyed Latta). Still, as much as Mac loves Reirden (obviously), he better hope - as we all must - that Todd is ready to make the big step up as the HC. My other fave team in D.C. that hits failed to move on from their incumbent HC for the up and comer (Sean McVay). So, if Reirden rocks it, we will all be thrilled and singing Mac's praises.
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Mac has been better than I had hoped. But he hasn't been flawless. I thought he should have exposed MoJo and not Schmidt to the Expansion Draft. But he recovered nicely with the Kempny find at the trade deadline. Other moves at the trade deadline - from Glencross to Shattenkirk - bombed, so he needs to improve there. But unlike McPhee, he hasn't made a 'brain dead' move like moving Forsberg out for Erat and Latta (as much as I enjoyed Latta). Still, as much as Mac loves Reirden (obviously), he better hope - as we all must - that Todd is ready to make the big step up as the HC. My other fave team in D.C. that hits failed to move on from their incumbent HC for the up and comer (Sean McVay). So, if Reirden rocks it, we will all be thrilled and singing Mac's praises.
I agree BMac hasn't been flawless. He's made some bad moves too. But overall, MacLellan >>> McPhee as a Caps GM. That's for damn sure.