Author Topic: Honestly, I've been happy with MacLellan  (Read 17743 times)

0 Members and 6 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline DC_1908

  • Chairman of the Boards
  • Global Moderator
  • Hockey Deity
  • ******
  • Posts: 15306
  • Likes: 2080
Re: Honestly, I've been happy with MacLellan
« Reply #20 on: Saturday June 23, 2018, 09:30:20 PM Eastern »

Have you ever seen me post? I'll never be accused of wearing rose colored glasses. My point is simply that WE WON so MAYBE management knows more than you seem to think they do. A GM who couldn't get it done gets praise while the one who won it gets criticized regularly. Clearly they must know SOMETHING right?
We’re saying that this Cup win is not due to the GM and upper management.  If anything, it’s in spite of them.


These last 16 wins, and last 7 games, had next to nothing to do with GMBetaMale. If it did, the previous 100 would have provided support for that argument


Offline zerofox

  • Advanced Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1941
  • Likes: 381
Re: Honestly, I've been happy with MacLellan
« Reply #21 on: Saturday June 23, 2018, 09:38:57 PM Eastern »
Okay so I'll admit perhaps I'm wrong about Shattenkirk, and maybe I was too easily convinced by the hype around him. He seemed like the biggest name rental guy available at the time and even though I agree we didn't need another offensive Dman, I was just excited that we had the guts to make a big splash at the time. But yeah I can agree that a big name rental doesn't always pan out. This year we plugged holes with under the radar moves, while teams likes Boston (Nash) and TB (McDonaugh) failed to win a Cup despite big moves.

But putting aside the Shattenkirk issue, I still give GMBM a lot of credit for his moves thus far. The teams we've had the past few years I feel like are superior to any team we had during the McPhee era. He deserves credit for that.

Offline Devise

  • Advanced Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2584
  • Likes: 539
Re: Honestly, I've been happy with MacLellan
« Reply #22 on: Saturday June 23, 2018, 09:42:56 PM Eastern »

Have you ever seen me post? I'll never be accused of wearing rose colored glasses. My point is simply that WE WON so MAYBE management knows more than you seem to think they do. A GM who couldn't get it done gets praise while the one who won it gets criticized regularly. Clearly they must know SOMETHING right?


Just because we are critical of BMGM doesn't mean we aren't also giving him credit where it's due. I have no idea what your talking about in reference to another GM, who was giving another GM credit? There was some McPhee praise during the playoffs and debate over in in a thread here. That has nothing to do with being realistic regarding BMGM. He himself thought this could be a year we missed the playoffs. He had no faith in our roster or coaching staff, or our farm. It was Trotz and the coaching staff finding solutions in Hershey that paid off as well as getting some grit depth support.


I don't get why you have to boil the discussion down to simple platitudes though. Why does it have to be, either management knows more than I think they do or they don't know as much as I think they do. That isn't at the heart of the debate. It's looking at specific moves and actions and judging those decisions. BMGM in his tenure here very much has had an aura of "make big bold moves" and it just so happens that some of those bold moves thankfully involved players with character. But I also think coaching staff has a lot to factor in, because they wanted more character guys and would constantly bench more skilled ones. Burt, Vrana, Bowey, the list goes on of the depth guys that sat for Walker, Gersich, Stephenson, Chiasson. The evidence simply isn't there to say "BMGM clearly knew what he was doing when he did X".


Stating that doesn't somehow undo the credit he does deserve, specifically as it relates to Nisky/Orpik, Oshie, and Eller. But again those are situations where as mentioned, those trades only seem so right in hindsight. Up to that point we had tried a lot of options to kickstart this teams mentality heading into the playoffs. There wasn't really any evidence before hand that it would be these group to help do that, only that we knew going in some of those names were harder workers/more known to shown up in the post-season. I think that is part of the problem is that seeing a GM who thought he had a struggling team, and fans who thought the same go all the way makes one wonder if it isn't just management but fans who are misguided about what it takes to win.


That said, I thought based on the prospect info we could go on that we had a fine draft. Again good and bad decisions don't happen in a bubble, and it remains to be seen how big of a blow losing Trotz is. For all we know we face the Isles in the first round and Trotz is a key to their coaching staff in defeating us. One bad decision can outweigh 5 good ones. Ultimately having question marks in relation to management here is still absolutely realistic post a Cup win. And even if we were to repeat, let's assume that happens. That doesn't necessarily mean it'll be due entirely to our GM either. Again the "maturity" factor of our roster is something nobody accounted for, and if we do repeat I'm going to argue that it'll likely have something to do with it.

Offline DC_1908

  • Chairman of the Boards
  • Global Moderator
  • Hockey Deity
  • ******
  • Posts: 15306
  • Likes: 2080
Re: Honestly, I've been happy with MacLellan
« Reply #23 on: Saturday June 23, 2018, 09:54:52 PM Eastern »
Okay so I'll admit perhaps I'm wrong about Shattenkirk, and maybe I was too easily convinced by the hype around him. He seemed like the biggest name rental guy available at the time and even though I agree we didn't need another offensive Dman, I was just excited that we had the guts to make a big splash at the time. But yeah I can agree that a big name rental doesn't always pan out. This year we plugged holes with under the radar moves, while teams likes Boston (Nash) and TB (McDonaugh) failed to win a Cup despite big moves.

But putting aside the Shattenkirk issue, I still give GMBM a lot of credit for his moves thus far. The teams we've had the past few years I feel like are superior to any team we had during the McPhee era. He deserves credit for that.
Why?


You’re assuming the GM is the totalitarian architect of the Caps.  While that’s true with some teams, it sure as hell isnt with The Caps.  Just look at the Trotz thread.


Monumental Entertainment decided that “to have a chance” to win a Cup, is more profitable than saying “we will win a Cup”.  That’s why it took 10yrs to catch lightning in bottle.


Mind you, without Ted, Dickless, and Monumental, “McPhail” took an expansion team in one year to where the Caps had only been once in over 40.


Without Ted, Dickless, and Monumental stepping on GMGMs toes, this certainly wouldn’t of been our first Cup

Offline KitFisto

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1153
  • Likes: 190
Re: Honestly, I've been happy with MacLellan
« Reply #24 on: Saturday June 23, 2018, 10:03:47 PM Eastern »
We’re saying that this Cup win is not due to the GM and upper management.  If anything, it’s in spite of them.


These last 16 wins, and last 7 games, had next to nothing to do with GMBetaMale. If it did, the previous 100 would have provided support for that argument


And I'm saying you're wrong. You hate management so much that no amount of winning will change your mind. Thinking BM had nothing to do with this cup is ABSOLUTELY LAUGHABLE at best and flat out stupid at worst. He added the pieces that pushed this team to where McPhail couldn't in 16 years. Failure after failure by McPhail is met with your praise. Lousy coach after lousy coach and you try to claim it's not on McPhail, but Ted made those decisions. To be blunt, you are so full of dislike for management that NOTHING will change your mind.


You call BM "beta", but your precious McPhee wouldn't add a physical defenseman for over a decade if his life depended on it.

Offline DC_1908

  • Chairman of the Boards
  • Global Moderator
  • Hockey Deity
  • ******
  • Posts: 15306
  • Likes: 2080
Re: Honestly, I've been happy with MacLellan
« Reply #25 on: Saturday June 23, 2018, 10:33:41 PM Eastern »

And I'm saying you're wrong. You hate management so much that no amount of winning will change your mind. Thinking BM had nothing to do with this cup is ABSOLUTELY LAUGHABLE at best and flat out stupid at worst. He added the pieces that pushed this team to where McPhail couldn't in 16 years. Failure after failure by McPhail is met with your praise. Lousy coach after lousy coach and you try to claim it's not on McPhail, but Ted made those decisions. To be blunt, you are so full of dislike for management that NOTHING will change your mind.


You call BM "beta", but your precious McPhee wouldn't add a physical defenseman for over a decade if his life depended on it.
Something could change my mind, how about at least  3 Cups in 6 years?


You’re so high on the fact that we “finally” aren’t one of the teams that could not win 4 best of 7 series, that you forgot why it took 40+ yesrs in the first place, let alone that was the 10th year of the 3yr “have a chance” plan


(Oh, and GMGM went out and got England and Sbisa, both of which could snap the necks of any Caps D man.  But given the GMs don’t have much control, that’s not the only reason he’s called BetaMale)


Do you seriously think GMBetaMale could of taken VGK to the final?  If so, would the Caps have lasted 5 games against the Messiah?


Offline zerofox

  • Advanced Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1941
  • Likes: 381
Re: Honestly, I've been happy with MacLellan
« Reply #26 on: Saturday June 23, 2018, 10:55:42 PM Eastern »
Why?


You’re assuming the GM is the totalitarian architect of the Caps.  While that’s true with some teams, it sure as hell isnt with The Caps.  Just look at the Trotz thread.


Monumental Entertainment decided that “to have a chance” to win a Cup, is more profitable than saying “we will win a Cup”.  That’s why it took 10yrs to catch lightning in bottle.


Mind you, without Ted, Dickless, and Monumental, “McPhail” took an expansion team in one year to where the Caps had only been once in over 40.


Without Ted, Dickless, and Monumental stepping on GMGMs toes, this certainly wouldn’t of been our first Cup


Do you think that VGK's success was due to McPhee or due to how the expansion draft was structured? Could another GM have done a similar job if they were allowed to build a team from scratch by picking players from the other teams?


Yes McPhee "took" an expansion team to the finals in one year when the Caps have only been there twice in 40+ years. But the expansion allowed McPhee to fully construct a roster from scratch with a more favorable expansion structure, which is not something MacLellan had the ability to do. On the other hand, McLellan achieved in 4 years what McPhee couldn't in 16, and they did it under more comparable conditions.


All we have to compare right now is McPhee vs. MacLellan as GMs of the Capitals, in which case I'd take McLellan's 1 Stanley Cup/2 President's Trophies/4 straight playoff appearances in 4 years over McPhee's 0 Stanley Cups/1 President's Trophy/10 playoff appearances in 16 years any day. It doesn't make sense to speculate if MacLellan would have been as successful with VGK, but the facts are MacLellan did in four years what McPhee couldn't do in 16.

Offline DC_1908

  • Chairman of the Boards
  • Global Moderator
  • Hockey Deity
  • ******
  • Posts: 15306
  • Likes: 2080
Re: Honestly, I've been happy with MacLellan
« Reply #27 on: Saturday June 23, 2018, 11:18:19 PM Eastern »

Do you think that VGK's success was due to McPhee or due to how the expansion draft was structured? Could another GM have done a similar job if they were allowed to build a team from scratch by picking players from the other teams?


Yes McPhee "took" an expansion team to the finals in one year when the Caps have only been there twice in 40+ years. But the expansion allowed McPhee to fully construct a roster from scratch with a more favorable expansion structure, which is not something MacLellan had the ability to do. On the other hand, McLellan achieved in 4 years what McPhee couldn't in 16, and they did it under more comparable conditions.


All we have to compare right now is McPhee vs. MacLellan as GMs of the Capitals, in which case I'd take McLellan's 1 Stanley Cup/2 President's Trophies/4 straight playoff appearances in 4 years over McPhee's 0 Stanley Cups/1 President's Trophy/10 playoff appearances in 16 years any day.
An excellent example of syllogistic “logic”. The messiah picture you’re trying to create isn’t working. 


I really hope you’re drinking good stuff tonight and not just the Tedsville KoolAid.


The bigger picture is Monumental wanted to market  “have a chance”, and sell that more than winning multiple Cups.
 


Offline zerofox

  • Advanced Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1941
  • Likes: 381
Re: Honestly, I've been happy with MacLellan
« Reply #28 on: Saturday June 23, 2018, 11:37:02 PM Eastern »
An excellent example of syllogistic “logic”. The messiah picture you’re trying to create isn’t working. 


I really hope you’re drinking good stuff tonight and not just the Tedsville KoolAid.


The bigger picture is Monumental wanted to market  “have a chance”, and sell that more than winning multiple Cups.
 


So is your gripe more with Ted and Dick Patrick? If so I still don't see why you hate GMBM so much.

Offline DC_1908

  • Chairman of the Boards
  • Global Moderator
  • Hockey Deity
  • ******
  • Posts: 15306
  • Likes: 2080
Re: Honestly, I've been happy with MacLellan
« Reply #29 on: Saturday June 23, 2018, 11:57:07 PM Eastern »

So is your gripe more with Ted and Dick Patrick? If so I still don't see why you hate GMBM so much.
I know you don’t.   He’s entertaining.


Just look at his trade and UFA signing history.   That’s all you need to see that GMs and agents think of  him as the red-headed step child they can bully into doing what they want.


Offline zerofox

  • Advanced Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1941
  • Likes: 381
Re: Honestly, I've been happy with MacLellan
« Reply #30 on: Sunday June 24, 2018, 12:44:41 AM Eastern »
I know you don’t.   He’s entertaining.


Just look at his trade and UFA signing history.   That’s all you need to see that GMs and agents think of  him as the red-headed step child they can bully into doing what they want.


As opposed to GMGM who made moves such as Forsberg for Erat and Latta? How is McPhee superior?

Maacoshark

  • Guest
Re: Honestly, I've been happy with MacLellan
« Reply #31 on: Sunday June 24, 2018, 02:17:18 AM Eastern »
I know you don’t.   He’s entertaining.


Just look at his trade and UFA signing history.   That’s all you need to see that GMs and agents think of  him as the red-headed step child they can bully into doing what they want.
    I think you are being a little hard on GMBM. I dont agree with every decision he has made. Overall he actually hasn't done a bad job.

Offline KitFisto

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1153
  • Likes: 190
Re: Honestly, I've been happy with MacLellan
« Reply #32 on: Sunday June 24, 2018, 08:50:14 AM Eastern »
Something could change my mind, how about at least  3 Cups in 6 years?


You’re so high on the fact that we “finally” aren’t one of the teams that could not win 4 best of 7 series, that you forgot why it took 40+ yesrs in the first place, let alone that was the 10th year of the 3yr “have a chance” plan


(Oh, and GMGM went out and got England and Sbisa, both of which could snap the necks of any Caps D man.  But given the GMs don’t have much control, that’s not the only reason he’s called BetaMale)


Do you seriously think GMBetaMale could of taken VGK to the final?  If so, would the Caps have lasted 5 games against the Messiah?


3 cups in 6 years? Yeah, because every team got to draft in the top 3 how many straight years like the Pens or Hawks? How many teams outside those 2 and the 90s Wings do that? So, I assume since the answer is nearly none that you think every GM in the NHL sucks?

Offline DC_1908

  • Chairman of the Boards
  • Global Moderator
  • Hockey Deity
  • ******
  • Posts: 15306
  • Likes: 2080
Re: Honestly, I've been happy with MacLellan
« Reply #33 on: Sunday June 24, 2018, 09:07:18 AM Eastern »

3 cups in 6 years? Yeah, because every team got to draft in the top 3 how many straight years like the Pens or Hawks? How many teams outside those 2 and the 90s Wings do that? So, I assume since the answer is nearly none that you think every GM in the NHL sucks?
Is that to hard for the Beta Male?


I think you realize that this team and orginization is not good enough to do that.  But why would they even try to when they can rake in the cash with “have a chance” and fans take 6 if not 16 games of finally playing not only right, but the games of thier lives as a divine message that the greatest team ever was built?


It’s a very romantic and entertaining narrative, and entertainment sells

Offline DC_1908

  • Chairman of the Boards
  • Global Moderator
  • Hockey Deity
  • ******
  • Posts: 15306
  • Likes: 2080
Re: Honestly, I've been happy with MacLellan
« Reply #34 on: Sunday June 24, 2018, 09:13:35 AM Eastern »

As opposed to GMGM who made moves such as Forsberg for Erat and Latta? How is McPhee superior?
:rofl:  Bring the the data and history of that trade (which your messiah there voted for too by the way). [font=vand all the answers are apparent.  Hell for shits and giggles compare it to the Shattenkrap trade and the answer will be more evident.

I also bet you 10 to 1 you’d of said FFF for Shattenkrap would of been a great that just didn’t work out

Offline DC_1908

  • Chairman of the Boards
  • Global Moderator
  • Hockey Deity
  • ******
  • Posts: 15306
  • Likes: 2080
Re: Honestly, I've been happy with MacLellan
« Reply #35 on: Sunday June 24, 2018, 10:26:30 AM Eastern »
    I think you are being a little hard on GMBM. I dont agree with every decision he has made. Overall he actually hasn't done a bad job.
Ya I know it looks, but unlike most, I haven’t completed  changed my mind based on 6-7 games like many have.


But in regards to this thread: when going into a season warning fans of low expectations, particularly  after a brutal offseason, when that team plays some of the worst misrake filled, lazy hockey ever seen in the NHL, a team that was written off in the playoffs  (and rightfully so) for the above reasons,  then makes a complete 180 of style and mentality to win a Cup. . . It’s easy to see the Cup was inspite of, not because of.


Maacoshark

  • Guest
Re: Honestly, I've been happy with MacLellan
« Reply #36 on: Sunday June 24, 2018, 11:45:04 AM Eastern »
Ya I know it looks, but unlike most, I haven’t completed  changed my mind based on 6-7 games like many have.


But in regards to this thread: when going into a season warning fans of low expectations, particularly  after a brutal offseason, when that team plays some of the worst misrake filled, lazy hockey ever seen in the NHL, a team that was written off in the playoffs  (and rightfully so) for the above reasons,  then makes a complete 180 of style and mentality to win a Cup. . . It’s easy to see the Cup was inspite of, not because of.
    I'll be honest I felt the same way about management. I changed my tune a bit. Not just because of the success but because of the changes that were made this season. Bringing in role players and calling up some youngsters from Hershey. Of course these moves were made because of the lack if cap space. If we had more Cap space we would have targeted different types of players and it probably would have failed. The only reason we had guys like Stephenson, DSP, Chaisson, Djoos,Bowey, Kempny and so on in our lineup was because that was what we could fit under the salary cap. So I wouldn't call GMBM brilliant. We did what we could with the money we had and got lucky.
   But I will give him credit. After the Shittenkirk deal I was pretty hard on him but he has redeemed himself a but since then.
     BTW I like the deal we made sending Orpik and Grubauer packing. A 2nd round isn't much in return but the mist important thing was getting out of the Orpik contract. I'm not disappointed to see Grubauer gone. Now the Grubauer should be our starter debate is over. Sorry guys but I just dont think Grubauer is very good.

Maacoshark

  • Guest
Re: Honestly, I've been happy with MacLellan
« Reply #37 on: Sunday June 24, 2018, 12:16:10 PM Eastern »
     For the record I dont like the way management handled the Trotz situation. Pretty sure management had already decided they were going in another direction. The Caps winning the cup made that situation a bit more difficult.

Offline 4 Caps

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1263
  • Likes: 221
Re: Honestly, I've been happy with MacLellan
« Reply #38 on: Sunday June 24, 2018, 01:13:19 PM Eastern »
It is hard to fault management with respect to Trotz.  By the terms of his contract he received a two year extension at a modest increase in salary for winning the Cup.  Management was willing to live up to that but Trotz wanted more money and a longer term.  Management was not willing to meet Trotz’ demands and so they let him out of his contract. They didn’t have to do that, they could have done what DC advocated and held him to his contract. 

Maacoshark

  • Guest
Re: Honestly, I've been happy with MacLellan
« Reply #39 on: Sunday June 24, 2018, 06:00:39 PM Eastern »
Is that to hard for the Beta Male?


I think you realize that this team and orginization is not good enough to do that.  But why would they even try to when they can rake in the cash with “have a chance” and fans take 6 if not 16 games of finally playing not only right, but the games of thier lives as a divine message that the greatest team ever was built?
   Ya the Pens had 2 first overall picks and 2 second overall picks in a span of a few years.
It worked for them but it doesnt always work out like that. Ask the Oilers or the Nordiques back in the day.


It’s a very romantic and entertaining narrative, and entertainment sells