Washington Capitals Fan Forum
Talk about Capitals hockey & more! => Washington Capitals & Other Hockey Discussion => Topic started by: Maacoshark on Saturday September 15, 2018, 09:46:54 AM Eastern
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I remember a discussion on the old page about NHL salaries. People were discussing some salaries that they wanted dumped from the Caps salary cap. I made a comment about teams finding loopholes to get around contracts. One member here argued with me that there was no way around the salary cap. Well obviously there is. The Leafs and Hawks used LTIR to free up cap space. And the Caps made a deal with Colorado that saved them 4 million in cap space and allowed them to get the player back. I bring this up because the NHL did investigate the Capitals for the Brooks Orpik transactions. They looked at the trade and signing and found the Caps did nothing wrong. I can see the NHL making some rules changes to stop teams from exploiting this loophole in the future.
The ironic thing is when we discussing trying to dump salaries and I commented on finding a loophole, the contract in discussion was Orpiks.
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I remember a discussion on the old page about NHL salaries. People were discussing some salaries that they wanted dumped from the Caps salary cap. I made a comment about teams finding loopholes to get around contracts. One member here argued with me that there was no way around the salary cap. Well obviously there is. The Leafs and Hawks used LTIR to free up cap space. And the Caps made a deal with Colorado that saved them 4 million in cap space and allowed them to get the player back. I bring this up because the NHL did investigate the Capitals for the Brooks Orpik transactions. They looked at the trade and signing and found the Caps did nothing wrong. I can see the NHL making some rules changes to stop teams from exploiting this loophole in the future.
The ironic thing is when we discussing trying to dump salaries and I commented on finding a loophole, the contract in discussion was Orpiks.
Good call! More than any sport, for every rule in the NHL, someone finds a way to exploit it. This would either by design in negotiations, or one side being taken advantage of in them.
More than likely BetaMale made Grubuar and Hooks a “package deal”, and either Colorado “outbid” everyone, by “implying” they’d just buyHooks out of his contract to get Grubs, or most likely it was just dumb luck they did and Hooks wanted to stay with Reidon after his payday, and Colorado got Grubs which was there goal.
The later is more feasible.
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I don't really see it as a loop hole, cause (unless Im mistaken) they lost control of Orpik's contract? Dumb luck or rather, no one else being that interested, is the reason he's back.
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I don't really see it as a loop hole, cause (unless Im mistaken) they lost control of Orpik's contract? Dumb luck or rather, no one else being that interested, is the reason he's back.
The league did investigate but couldn't find anynbwrong doing. I'm sure all parties involved in the deal discussed it and likely knew that this would be the final outcome. Yes this was as salary cap loophole. Why else would the NHL investigate the transaction? There was even rumors it would happen before Orpik even signed here.
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I just see "loopholes" as when you're exploiting something w/o the risk of losing anything.. Orpik became available to any team who wanted to pay him, didn't he? I guess if they'd agreed that would turn down any offers and return to the Caps, that could be seen as a violation, but as far as I know no one wanted him.. Or at least no one wanted him bad enough to pay him more than the Caps?
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yep, a loophole indicates a legal work around because of inaccurate or vague language
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yep, a loophole indicates a legal work around because of inaccurate or vague language
Heh which is how all NHL agreements are written 🤣
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I just see "loopholes" as when you're exploiting something w/o the risk of losing anything.. Orpik became available to any team who wanted to pay him, didn't he? I guess if they'd agreed that would turn down any offers and return to the Caps, that could be seen as a violation, but as far as I know no one wanted him.. Or at least no one wanted him bad enough to pay him more than the Caps?
How would you know if anyone wanted Orpik? I heard rumors that other teams had contacted Orpik.
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How would you know if anyone wanted Orpik? I heard rumors that other teams had contacted Orpik.
I just figure if anyone wanted (TO PAY) him, he'd be playing there, no? :wackysmile:
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Teams contact other players all the time, that in-upon itself is meaningless
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I just figure if anyone wanted (TO PAY) him, he'd be playing there, no? :wackysmile:
Well. . ., Hooks has always been about preserving his career, as noted by his reluctance to fight (granted he’s done actually done that a handful of times the past couple years), to avoid head injury, to a history of being “injured”, (aka vacations), over the years.
Coming here he’ll get lower minutes (i doubt he’ll see more than 12min a game, if that), be under his coach giving him even more of a leadership role, and a good route to get into coaching
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Coming here he’ll get lower minutes (i doubt he’ll see more than 12min a game, if that), be under his coach giving him even more of a leadership role, and a good route to get into coaching
All good points!! That would all get trumped by a payday..
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I just figure if anyone wanted (TO PAY) him, he'd be playing there, no? :wackysmile:
Pretty sure Orpik wanted to stay in Washington.
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Pretty sure Orpik wanted to stay in Washington.
See: Reply #11
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I just figure if anyone wanted (TO PAY) him, he'd be playing there, no? :wackysmile:
Perfectly logical conclusion, Mick!👍
Now my rambling reason why. LOL
Local coverage here, reported two significant things that had to take place, in order for a POTENTIAL return, by Orpik, back to the Caps, to be LEGAL:
1) Washington could NOT buyback Orpiks remaining contract from Colorado. If they did, Orpik becomes ineligible to return to them, without a waiting period, (I believe either 1 yr, or until January).
2) Colorado could buy Orpik out, OR, any team except the Caps, could buy Orpiks contract from Colorado, since they owned it via the Gruby deal.
Colorado knew, in advance, they were not going to put Orpik on their roster. THEY, first tried to shop him, (maybe a few days), accepting that it was not likely to get any takers, and they were prepared for the buy out and release of Orpik, already. THEY WANTED GRUBY! Credit GMBM for understanding Colorado’s desperation for a goalie, and “padding the Gruby ticket” with an inclusion of Orpiks contract value. That is NOT a loophole. That is called finding the right buyer, same thing ANY agent would try to do for his player/client! GMBM simply did it for HIS “CLIENT”, The Washington Capitals!!
Once Colorado bought out Orpiks contract, and released him, he was a free agent, with the liberty to accept ANY OFFER he pleased, from ANY NHL team. Orpik may very well have preferred to return to the Caps, but this does not diminish the risk to the Caps, that existed, if other offers were to ensue.
This “risk of loss” burden, put upon the Caps, IMHO, was why NHL found nothing illegal, as from a transactional point of view, there wasn’t a “loophole” found, to guarantee Orpiks return to the Caps, rather, another team, (Colorado), that was was WILLING, to somewhat OVERPAY, in order to fill an IMMEDIATE need. The very essence of what trade negotiations are all about! In this case, a win/win for both us and the Avalanche!
It is not a long leap to conclude that, even if there were other offers for Orpik, from other teams, they were subpar in Orpiks view. However, I seriously doubt there were any other offers, because Colorado would have jumped at them, to get back even minimal value for Orpik, AND, the Caps weren’t permitted by NHL rules, to buy Orpiks contract back from Colorado! Now THAT....would be attempting to exploit a LOOPHOLE!!! (Oh yeah...and why I agree with you, Mick)😁😁
Rush
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Pretty sure that all went down the way it was intended.
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Orpik isn't the first time this kind of thing has been done. It's a risky move because the Caps might not have gotten him back. It was a high risk calculated move that worked, this time.
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Orpik isn't the first time this kind of thing has been done. It's a risky move because the Caps might not have gotten him back. It was a high risk calculated move that worked, this time.
It is likely that all parties involved knew what was going to happen. I dont think it was a high risk move. Would have it been the end of the world if we didnt get him back? I thought if we needed a veteran on defense we could have tried to sign Hamhuis. Ended up we didnt need to.
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It is likely that all parties involved knew what was going to happen. I dont think it was a high risk move. Would have it been the end of the world if we didnt get him back? I thought if we needed a veteran on defense we could have tried to sign Hamhuis. Ended up we didnt need to.
Guarantee you GMBM, also, never considered it anything close to a high risk move, Maaco. Respectfully, to say that all parties KNEW what was going to happen is simply not factual. It’s called a calculated risk!! And even that doesn’t do it justice, when the risk is very small, compared to one of the main factors of the ENTIRE DEAL!!!.....Orpiks boat anchor contract, tied around the neck of the entire Caps organization!
Therefore I make the case that there wasnt ANY pre-planning as to whether we could “get Orpik back”! Rather, GMBM saw the opportunity to deliver some justice to Grubauer, which he had spoken of prior, AND dump that MAMMOTH Orpik contract, off on somebody else!! Genius move in and of itself! Any GM would have jumped all over it. I doubt Orpik returning, at that point was even in the discussion, as it’s such a non-factor to the whole of the deal!
I will say, After the dust settled, I sure am glad he’s back, however, as we have SO MANY youngins!
Rush
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I never said it was a fact. It is speculation. It is my opinion that Orpik and the Caps discussed this option before the trade was made. After the trade was made there was rumors that the Avalanche would buy out Orpik and the Caps might sign him. This was before Colorado even bought out Orpiks contract. As soon as that deal was made everyone knew Orpik would get bought out.
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I never said it was a fact. It is speculation. It is my opinion that Orpik and the Caps discussed this option before the trade was made. After the trade was made there was rumors that the Avalanche would buy out Orpik and the Caps might sign him. This was before Colorado even bought out Orpiks contract. As soon as that deal was made everyone knew Orpik would get bought out.
Orpik claimed he felt blindsided when it happened. Heres a partial piece in an article on the subject. Maybe this will help:
***Orpik was packaged with goalie Philipp Grubauer in a trade with the Colorado Avalanche. Washington received a draft pick and cap flexibility, Colorado received a starting caliber goalie at a cheaper price than it would have cost them without Orpik in the deal and Orpik suddenly received an uncertain future.
[/color]"I completely understood what was going on, I just had no knowledge it was coming," Orpik said. "Even when you understand that side of the business, you still get blindsided by it a little bit."
[/color]Colorado general manager Joe Sakic soon began shopping Orpik and, when there were no takers, Orpik's contract was ultimately bought out, making him a free agent.***
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[/color]Later on in the piece, Orpik went on to say that he didn’t think resigning with the Caps was even possible. Here it is:
[/color]
[/color]*** By rule, when a team buys out a player's contract, they cannot immediately re-sign that player just to circumvent the salary cap. Washington, however, didn't buy out Orpik. Colorado did, which opened the door for a return to Washington.
[/color]It was a scenario Orpik had not considered after the trade.
[/color]"I didn't really think [signing with Washington] was even a possibility," he said. "I know how it works, if you get bought out, you can't re-sign with a team for one calendar year. I don't know if anyone's ever even tried to or contemplated doing that after a buyout or if it's ever happened that way, trade, buyout and try to go back.
[/color]"It took awhile. I thought I was signing somewhere else, to be honest, but it worked out in the end." ***
[/color]The whole article is actually a nice read. It’s dated 9/10/18, by JJ Regan, from Sports Washington, if you care to check it out.
[/color]Looks like there’s larger concerns, early out, for us Caps fans. That Carolina game was pathetic tonight!
[/color]TTYL, Maaco
[/color]Rush
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Rush you dont actually believe all that. Do you think all transactions are honest?
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Rush you dont actually believe all that. Do you think all transactions are honest?
Sometimes you baffle me, buddy, I have to admit.
Nice try to “flip the script”, Maaco, as they say in the hood!
The real question would be why YOU WOULDNT believe it, or at least accept it as plausible!
And I will ignore the passive-aggressive, veiled attempt, at informing me, that you are so less gullible than I, about these things. But it was kinda pompous-ass-ish, to be sure!👎
To ask a rhetorical, yet kindergarten level question, about whether ALL transactions are honest, (the obvious answer being “of course all transactions are not honest), is completely VOID of any substantive recourse, on your part, to the article. It’s a practice in avoidance!
I will assume that you are NOT claiming that the actual WORDS of all parties quoted, were not said. In other words, you believe that all parties were at least quoted properly, AND, if so, then what in the hell is dishonest about it!
You must mean that what the parties said, actually happened, BUT, you think they are lying and covering up something, i.e., like they had already known, secretly, that Brooks was coming back!!
Do you have a special connection to any family member or relative of the GM’s of either the Caps or Avalanche? Are you and Brooks on talking terms? How many NHL negotiations have you sat in on, oh wise one? None of the above, right? Or else, can we say we would have seen you mention your awesome connections on this board before, correct? Most likely, the reason you deem their very words as dishonest, is simply that you have PRONOUNCED IT SO, here on the forum. Oh physician, please heal thyself!!
Maaco, does it not make sense to you that:
1) Colorado’s GM would have tried to shop Orpik around the league first, in order to at least get a little money back, before buying him out, making him a free agent, and thusly Colorado getting back ZILCH!
Any potential taker, prior to Colorado’s buyout, would have meant Orpik on ANOTHER team! That’s what has been stated. That makes logical sense!! Where is the DISHONESTY in that??
2) Orpik stated he was hoping for other offers, but NONE CAME!! (Same thing experienced by Colorado’s GM)! AMAZING! What, are they both lying?? NO!!! So I say again, Sir, that’s what has been stated. That makes logical sense!! Where is the DISHONESTY in that??
If you’re not sure if you are getting your ass handed to you here, verbally, let me help. YOU ARE!!
I don’t take too kindly to that style of subtle inference, assuming my cognitive level of understanding things is inferior to yours! Especially when I get the sense that you feel you’ve wrapped it all up for me, in “clever paper”! Its childish at best! I expect more respect from a person of your caliber! I ask that you please try to refrain from that style with me, in the future. Thank you.
You may want to consider re-reading the article, digest it a bit, post back to me your SUBSTANTIVE comments on the matter, and let’s have some good back and forth. Whaddya say?
Rush
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Sure its possible that Colorado tried to shop Orpik and it is possible that Orpik could gave signed with another team. Do you realize that the NHL was investigating this transaction? So the responses made by all involved were the only responses they could make. Whether it was true or not.
BTW this long post you made was a total waste of time. There were no facts. And apparently you arent paying attention. I have already said that this is only speculation on my part. I dont have any facts either. Can you not accept the fact that the Caps could have possibly exploited a loophole.
Plenty of teams have exploited loopholes. Why do you think it isn't possible for your team to do so? That's exactly how Leaf fans talk. There team can do no wrong.
And Rush I am not losing this argument if it even is an argument because Im not actually saying the caps are guilty. My opinion does lean in that direction though. And even if they did intentionally exploit a loophole in was a good move by GMBM and I'm fine with it.
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One more note. You keep saying the Avalanche tried to trade Orpik even though Sakic said right after the trade was made that they would be buying out Orpiks final year. Orpik never lasted 3 days with the Avalanche.
I think he was put on waivers the day after he was traded to the Avalanche. Doesnt sound like they tried to trade him.
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Avalanche "said they tried to trade him".. NHL "said they investigated".. What exactly doesn't add up, iyo? Maybe the NHL was in on it, with the Caps and Avalanche, to skirt their own rules? :wackysmile:
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Avalanche "said they tried to trade him".. NHL "said they investigated".. What exactly doesn't add up, iyo? Maybe the NHL was in on it, with the Caps and Avalanche, to skirt their own rules? :wackysmile:
The trade was made on June 22nd. He was placed on waivers June 23rd. When did they try to trade him? And GMBM said in an interview on June 24th that the Caps would look at bringing Orpik back which was before the Avalanche even bought him out. Those are all facts.
The league did investigate and found no wrong doing. Doesnt mean the Caps didnt find a loophole. What they did was within the rules. I didnt say they cheated. I said they found a loophole. There is a big difference.
You guys are reacting like Leaf fans.
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The trade was made on June 22nd. He was placed on waivers June 23rd. When did they try to trade him? And GMBM said in an interview on June 24th that the Caps would look at bringing Orpik back which was before the Avalanche even bought him out. Those are all facts.
The league did investigate and found no wrong doing. Doesnt mean the Caps didnt find a loophole. What they did was within the rules. I didnt say they cheated. I said they found a loophole. There is a big difference.
You guys are reacting like Leaf fans.
Hey Maaco
I respect your opinions in your last few posts. Thanks.
You specifically used the words “dishonest”, and “loophole”, as an overall characterization of the entire transaction. Both are simply false!
I also don’t know the length of time that Colorado shopped Orpik, but you seem to infer that the process takes a few days or more. In this cyber laden age, I can make the case, easily, that ANY player trade can occur in a matter of minutes or hours. I refer you to the numerous, last minute, trade deadline deals, or holdout negotiations, that appear hopeless at 11:50pm, them MIRACULOUSLY happen at 11:59pm. Too innumerable to deny!
Additionally you mention NO FACTS, in my prior post. Well ok, if you call referencing quotes from a news article, NOT FACTS, then I can’t help you, there! Hell, Maaco, I even enumerated them for you!!
I’ll switch gears here, and look at where we agree. We both heap praise on GMBM, and are glad Orpik has returned, on the cheap, to help provide leadership to our many inexperienced defenseman.
Maybe we are in a semantics debate. Just for fun, I looked up the word “loophole”! Interestingly, here’s what I found:
It has history from the Latin “intra legum”, which referred to the arrow-slit used by archers, atop the walls of a castle. As far as WE are concerned here, it describes a FORGOTTEN part, in a law or set of rules, where an INTERPRETATION can be made, due to the fault of the Rulemakers omission, that allows one to skirt around the law.
This is NOT the case here, Maaco, as everything is WITHIN the written rules!
The dictionary DID offer another word, by contrast, to compare with. One that I’ve not used before, but after reading the definition, perhaps describes the situation a bit better.
That word is “lacunae”. Here is the distinction, directly from Wiki:
Loopholes are distinct from [/color]lacunae (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_liquet)[/size][/color], although the two terms are often used interchangeably.[size=0.75em][/color][[/size]citation needed (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)[/size][/size][size=0.75em]][/font][/size][/color] In a loophole, a law addressing a certain issue exists, but can be legally circumvented due to a technical defect in the law. A lacuna, on the other hand, is a situation whereby no law exists in the first place to address that particular issue.[/color][/color]Sounds more like the latter word applies better. There just isn’t any rule preventing this type of thing in the NHL. [size=0.75em]
Ok, now I’ve used all my anal-retentive points on this fine Sunday. I hope this helps.
I await your comments, but remember, Mickstix and I weren’t born yesterday, and I hardly even know the guy!
Pretty soon, let’s turn the page on this one! Thanks Maaco!
Rush
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I just want to know what "loophole" they used? Is there something they did, that the NHL will try to fix?? What they did, was use Grubi to get rid of Orpik.. What went down after that "worked out" for the Caps, but calling it a loophole just doesn't fit, imo..
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I just want to know what "loophole" they used? Is there something they did, that the NHL will try to fix?? What they did, was use Grubi to get rid of Orpik.. What went down after that "worked out" for the Caps, but calling it a loophole just doesn't fit, imo..
What I am saying is that they found away to get rid of Orpiks big salary and get him back for alot less. I'm not saying they cheated. I'm saying they probably knew what the outcome was going to be a head of time. Why else would GMBM bring up the possibility if bring Orpik back even before Colorado had bought out his contract.
Tampa Bay and the Leafs tried to do something similar with Lecavlier but the league intervened. I'm not exactly sure what those circumstances were.
I really dont understand why you guys can't see how it looks suspicious.
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Avalanche "said they tried to trade him".. NHL "said they investigated".. What exactly doesn't add up, iyo? Maybe the NHL was in on it, with the Caps and Avalanche, to skirt their own rules? :wackysmile:
😂🤣😂🤣
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What I am saying is that they found away to get rid of Orpiks big salary and get him back for alot less. I'm not saying they cheated. I'm saying they probably knew what the outcome was going to be a head of time. Why else would GMBM bring up the possibility if bring Orpik back even before Colorado had bought out his contract.
Tampa Bay and the Leafs tried to do something similar with Lecavlier but the league intervened. I'm not exactly sure what those circumstances were.
I really dont understand why you guys can't see how it looks suspicious.
Uh....because it’s NOT!!
There are no elements of suspicion in it AT ALL!
In fact, your first paragraph of this post sounds like you’re a lawyer for MY side!!
You’ve quickly slid from dishonest, to loophole, now saying they were not cheating!
Maaco, your eyelids are getting heavy...keep focused on my swinging timepiece....you’re feeling sleepy....sleepy...drifting deeper.....even sleepier.......OK now, in two seconds, I’m going to clap my hands.....at this sound, you will awaken, feeling rested, relaxed, and having mental clarity in all things that confuse you,..OK, ready.............S N A P👏👏.........There, there, now. Guess what!!
YOU AGREE WITH ME!!! 😂 😂
Rush
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I agree with you!!
wait, what just happened, I'm feeling well rested, relaxed and unconfused
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It does seem like we all agree, sadly.. :rofl: Teams tie crummy contracts to prospects/trade picks all the time.. The reason us getting him back is not suspicious, is because we're talking about 38 years old Brooks Orpik.. lol
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I agree with you!!
wait, what just happened, I'm feeling well rested, relaxed and unconfused
😂🤣😂!!
Fuckin funny Alta
Rush
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It does seem like we all agree, sadly.. :rofl: Teams tie crummy contracts to prospects/trade picks all the time.. The reason us getting him back is not suspicious, is because we're talking about 38 years old Brooks Orpik.. lol
Ya its not like we were getting a Norris calibre dman. It was a move we had to make to get rid of the contract. I'm not sure if signing him was a good move or not. I guess he can mentor the young guys.
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Ya its not like we were getting a Norris calibre (John Carlson) dman. It was a move we had to make to get rid of the contract. I'm not sure if signing him was a good move or not. I guess he can mentor the young guys.
[size=78%]Here I fixed this for you, since we all know you are a lover of all things Dylan...[/size] :raspberry:
I'm just being a smartass to you Maaco
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[size=78%]Here I fixed this for you, since we all know you are a lover of all things Dylan...[/size] :raspberry:
I'm just being a smartass to you Maaco
Kid all you want but Carlson had a great year. Problem is that we gave him that big contract and I dont think he will ever be able to repeat last season. I hope I'm wrong.
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Hey i used to be honestly a Carlson hater because he was such a marshmallow and was so ho hum and seemingly non caring.
His seemingly uncaring personality aside, I will acknowledge he certainly has improved his game and effectiveness consistently the past three seasons and he did have a marvelous season last year.
I am no longer a hater, and don't really have a problem with the contract. It's too much and too long, bu considering Caps position and other options, I don't have a problem with it.
I didn't have much hope caps could afford him and figured he was gone but the Orpik move freed up salary and they got it done. I have to give GMBM credit for getting this done.
Only time will tell if he was worth the $$$, but that's true if any contract.
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Hey i used to be honestly a Carlson hater because he was such a marshmallow and was so ho hum and seemingly non caring.
His seemingly uncaring personality aside, I will acknowledge he certainly has improved his game and effectiveness consistently the past three seasons and he did have a marvelous season last year.
I am no longer a hater, and don't really have a problem with the contract. It's too much and too long, bu considering Caps position and other options, I don't have a problem with it.
I didn't have much hope caps could afford him and figured he was gone but the Orpik move freed up salary and they got it done. I have to give GMBM credit for getting this done.
Only time will tell if he was worth the $$$, but that's true if any contract.
Couldn’t have said it better myself, Rich.
Carlson has a great year last season. I’m really glad Kempny is back there with him. They really pair off of each other well!
Maaco will be happy to know that I’ve really noticed Carlson in the preseason, having what seems to be a little more speed, a little quicker reaction time, and even slightly more physical. I couldn’t believe my eyes. He’s made a couple goofs already, just like everybody else, but they are a lot easier for me to swallow with him this year because he seems to be trying harder! Still can’t believe I’m saying this yet, but I got to be honest about it. I’m actually glad for the guy!
Rush