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Guns and Blowin Shit Up!

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richkrt99:

--- Quote from: alta on Tuesday August 24, 2021, 08:57:11 PM Eastern ---it also seems to me you are ignoring buffer weight and thinking too much about buffer spring weight. There are different weight springs, but thats for ultra fine tuning, not getting the rifle to cycle. In fact, if you aren't shooting competition, the standard buffer spring is more than sufficient.



so, based on what you've posted til now, I'd say lube and/or a lighter buffer weight will fix your problems

--- End quote ---


Oh, my baby is lubed up.  My original Bushmaster AR taught me she likes to run wet.
Honestly, when I bought the lighter buffer spring (online) I THOUGHT it came with a lighter weight, but it did not.


If I could get more than an hour or two every two or three weekends or so, I might be able to get it going.

alta:
ok, I just re read all your issues with the .223. This is all with used brass? I'm starting to think this may be part of the problem, at least with hard extraction. Also, clean the chambers real good and take a good look at them. They should look smooth, no rough spots. Its not unheard of for a chamber to need a light polish. Internal polish on a firearm does not mean make it look like a mirror, it means getting rid of rough edges left by tooling marks. This still doesn't explain the failure to feed though, unless the cases are so out of spec as to be causing that as well. I have had bad brass before, though it's been a few years. But given the shelf life of this stuff it very well could still be in circulation.

When you say failure to load, I assume the bolt is not going back far enough to pick up the next round. That can only be a couple on things. No lube/not enough lube, under powered loads, or the buffer is too heavy for the load. A heavy buffer increases the mass the bolt needs to push back, basic physics. Im guessing a rough chamber could contribute to it, but you dont have an issue with factory ammo.

The only thing I use used/range pickup brass in is semi auto hand guns, and only once. Two things, you can full length resize straight wall cases. and with used brass you never know how many times its already been fired. It is, or was cheap, so Id get some occasionally for range use. Load it once and leave it lie.

The vast majority of my reloading is for hand guns. I will keep the cylinder(revolver) or barrel(semi) at the press with me when loading a given cartridge and use them to make sure completed rounds drop in and out freely. This can be done with a rifle too, they make tools for that..

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1018249683

One more thing, is this only with the russian powder? Or with the 4198 as well? Its probably been a good 15 years since Ive heard about a bad batch of powder, but thats not impossible either.

I have been tempted a few times to buy once fired 5.56 or .308 brass. Never have though. All my rifle brass is new. The past 18 months are different though, supplies have never been this tight. The remington ammo plant is back up and running after it was shut down from the backruptcy, so that should help.

ArJunaZ:

--- Quote from: richkrt99 on Monday August 16, 2021, 12:26:15 PM Eastern ---Didn't have much time this weekend, but I did try and shoot some.  I swapped uppers/lowers and same thing, replaced the bolt carrier in one with a nickel boron "spare".  Went back to some of the 18.4 loads (of which I have about 250) and same result. 

Went back to the drawing board and started at the very bottom load (based on 2021 Hornady book) which is 17.4g of (4198).  Made 10 rounds and fired that and it is definitely light.  Shoots on target, but had several cases not eject.  Some do eject, but doesn't chamber the next round. And you can feel how light it is.  I filmed it in slow motion with my phone, but it's not really slow enough to see if the bolt is sliding all the way back or not.  I can't see a difference in the videos of the factory and hand loads.  Maybe if I load the video to a LARGER screen, and had some frame by frame software I could see it, but not so much on the phone screen.  I put alternating hand loads and factory loads in the same mag and all the factory loads fire, then the hand loads fire, but not chamber the next round.  Consistently the same in both rifles.  Go back to factory loads and both rifles function flawlessly.
By the way...the bolt is pulling back far enough to reset the trigger.  I did notice (when shells fully eject), I pull the trigger and the hammer strikes and nothing.  Early on I thought I was getting a misfire and then realized there is just no round in the chamber.

I've changed just about everything from primers to cases to rifles and get the same result. I thought maybe my primers were old and just wasn't quite getting it, but I've tried different batches (winchester, CCI, etc) and same thing.  It's not that they aren't igniting or even firing...they just don't cycle the next round.  From what I've read the CCI #41 primers are pretty hot so...and they were designed for gas guns

Only common denominators I can find in this equation are the powder and...
     :pointdown:
 the operator


I've tried searching the forums for any load data for this FSP-680 powder (Russian powder sold by Ft. Smith) and I can't find any.


I HAVE read several posts (in older forums) with the very same issues I'm having - not cycling the rounds.
Some have said they love 4198 and works well in their rifles and others have said they have to load at or above max data to cycle the round - and found it's not worth doing.
Most who actually posted their load data are well into the upper or above max published data.  Also appears there is quite a range in that data and 2010 and older books published MUCH higher loads than more recent books.  Most who got it to work found very good accuracy and clean burning.  Also....most preferred IMR4198 to H4198 and it "appears" the H4198 needs a teeny bit higher load.  However, I'm just using the data a "relative" starting point so....


Looks like I might need to acquire a new rifle chambered 7.62x39 to get use of this 15 pounds of powder  :huh: :uh-huh:


Although, even after reading through several forums where folks are having issues, I find it odd that Hogden would publish load data for this round if it were to find so many problems.

--- End quote ---

Those books are too conservative IMO.  Lawyers got a hand in them.  I have and use both IMR 4198 and Hodgdon H4198.  Both are made for very light loads in .223/5.56, like UP TO 55gr.  55gr will need a higher load of powder.   I recommend trying 20-21gr IMR or 21-22gr Hodgdon.  That should cycle most functioning AR15.

I have used 22gr of either powder with Hornady 55gr FMJ-BT bullets and never had an issue with either gas impingement or piston uppers.  I must add that all but one of my AR15's are short barrels, 16", 14.5" or 10.5".  Longer barrels (gas port further down barrel) may struggle with these 4198 powders and the heavier loads like 55gr.

Regarding another question I saw posted here.  I have a bunch or AR15 rifles and the only time I ever played with buffer weight was to change the cyclic rate of my M16/M4.

alta:
Theoretically, you should never have to change buffer weight. We all know how that goes.

ARs from the factory are notorious for being over gassed. But they need to be for it to be functional with the wide range of ammo that's commercially available, and at a wide range of temperatures, like using the same gun and ammo in both Alaska in the winter and Phoenix in the summer. Cheep range ammo isn't as hot, doesn't produce as much gas as high end self defense/hunting/true 5.56 does. In the past few years manufacturers have gotten better at drilling a proper sized gas port.

People that only shoot the high end stuff tend to tune the gun for that ammo. Two ways to do that. A heavier buffer which slows down lock time, send more gas down the barrel. Or an adjustable gas block.  Some think an adjustable gas block is only really necessary on a gun that uses a suppressor, but not full time. A suppressor sends a lot more gas into the gas system, and the users face.

Also, the AR has become the adult version of tinker toys, people love to tinker with it. It's important to learn what those changes do and if they are necessary.

richkrt99:
So I tinkered just a teeny bit yesterday.  Finally got a lighter buffer weight in and tried that in the 18" Wylde.  2.2 oz buffer.  Still did not cycle.  I should have swapped it to the 16" carbine, but didn't.  Had lots going on (mostly dropping a dead oak tree and cutting that up which was long overdue).  By the time I got to the hobby, I just didn't have much time or mostly energy.  Tree whooped my ass - as I am old and out of shape (okay, I'm older and fat).  (Today I can barely stand up straight) :-\


I actually also recently got an Armaspec Stealth recoil spring, which I tried with the same end result.  ( I do like it in my 16" gun with factory rounds though)


I've tried both new and used brass.  although I have only limited amount of new brass.  All the "used" brass is supposedly 1x fired and I know that the "personal" supply portion is only x fired.  I have all my brass separated by brands/batches as well as number of times fired.   (I did trim all the used brass to length and resize, etc.)  I don't "think" it's the brass as I didn't have any issue with the brass with other powders (IMR4064).  AND....some of it was new brass.


Also, with the recent ongoing building hobby, I now have three completed and different AR guns all of which treat this batch of loads relatively the same.  3 Guns:  A) 20+ year old Bushmaster 16" A2 model, B) newish PSA build 16" barrel, mid-length gas, and the "newest"; C) 18" stainless Wylde, rifle length gas.  Both of these "builds" were factory assembled uppers and I did the lowers.  I also have one more assembled upper (16" mid length) I have swapped in for testing, as well as several different BCG, etc.
All react the same - cycle fine with factory ammo and the IMR4064 hand loads, yet short cycle on the "Russian 4198".  I can actually feel the load is light.  It fires fine, ejects the shell 90% of the time, but almost never cycles the next round.  Occasionally I get a stuck case, which I don't understand either.
With the factory buffers, all three guns cycle well with factory 223 and 5.56 ammo I have.


What I don't get is weeks/months ago, I slowly worked the load up and up and up from 18.5 to 22.5.
At 22.5 I was getting flattened primers and stuck cases.


I know the 4198 is not ideal .223 55GR, but I DID find published loads for it so I figured it would work at least for plinking (which is all I was after).  I read a bunch of forums and this seams to be a common problem.  Lot's of folks find it works fine and many find it won't cycle properly.  With 16lbs of it....I certainly want to try and get a load that I can work.
It's Russian powder FSP-680 sold through Ft Smith..."most similar" to 4198. It is new powder made in 2020-2021

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