Talk about Capitals hockey & more! > General Discusion Anything But Hockey
Guns and Blowin Shit Up!
richkrt99:
I went back to my Hornady book (10th edition) and it was actually where I got the 18.4gr starting point for the "4198" The load actually says 18.4 to 21.x?
I shot a few more of that batch with the same result. Bumped up the load to 19.0gr. Same result. 20.0 and same result. It was about 8pm so I quit there.
Either the powder is not as "similar" to 4198 as expected or ....I don't know what.
I was very careful in checking the powder measurement, etc. I'm using CCI #41 primers that I bought new last year. Couple hundred rounds of the brass from early rounds was actually primed brass I got from a guy in Tidewater, but it all looked very good and new (and same result)
I am a little curious about the OAL I'm getting. All my brass is trimmed to 1.752. My initial loads with IMI 55Gr bullets with a cannelure. (I do a light taper crimp on the cannelure). With the IMI bullets, OAL is right at 2.25 which is what most of the data says as far as OAL.
With my MidSouth Supply 55Gr bullets (with cannelure), I had to shorten OAL to 2.205 to be in the cannelure, which is shorter than the data suggests. I went back and looked and these are Hornady FMJ BT bullets. (No they are not Hornady, but some no name, but are 55GR FMJ) Looking at the bullets you can easily see a visible difference in that they are shorter stubbier and less "pointy". I lay them side by side (just the bullet) and these bullets are shorter in length. (The weight is dead on so I guess it's just a different shape overall) I am confused here because all the Hornady data says 2.230" OAL. If I set to that length it will completely miss the cannelure. (not Hornady bullets though)
So I just downloaded the "new" edition load data from Hornady and it NOW shows .223 load data for 4198 starting at 19.3 up to 24.0 max. (that's up a couple full grains on the max end) They don't show a 5.56 load using the 4198 powder.
I loaded at 20 and still get a failure to cycle on nearly every round. They are firing on target and ejecting shell but no feed. I'd swear it was the rifle except it does exact same thing in two different rifles. I go back to some PMC factory rounds and cycles like a champ.
Gonna keep tweaking it, but I'm in the load range given by the data and no joy. My number 1 goal is to NOT blow anything up. I've looked at both .223 and 5.56 Hornady loads and the max is about the same comparing one to another with various powders.
just another day in "as Rich's reloading life turns"
richkrt99:
Changed the buffer spring to a lightweight spring and same result. (although I did not change the buffer weight - didn't realize the weight did not come with the spring)
Bumped up the load to 21.0 then to 22.0
Same result....although at 21, I did get some to cycle. and at 21/22 I was sometimes getting the next round to jamb on the feed ramp with the bolt trapping it before seating into the barrel. Thought I was headed toward success, but....No
At 22 - I'm starting to get flattened primers and I did get a shell stuck (lightly) Pulled the charging handle and it popped out. Don't see any leaks or bulges, but the primer is slightly flattened on the end.
At 23 - flattened primers, stuck brass (2/10) and still no feed
I keep thinking it's the rifle like maybe something wrong with the feed ramp or ejector, but nearly 100% eject properly but the next round doesn't cycle. Thought maybe a bad catch or thinkamajig on the bolt wasn't catching the next round. (Cause it wasn't jamming on the feed - it just isn't feeding) Even swapped the bolt out (actually did that way back early in this drama when I was cleaning it and bent the damn firing pin retaining pin, so I just grabbed an extra bolt I had purchased for the next build) But every time I go back to factory ammo (PMC 55gr) and it cycles like a champ. (Using the very same 2 or 3 Pmag mags, with 3, 5, 10, 20, and 30 rounds - flawless with the PMC ammo)
I even watched where my shells were ejecting to see if I could see some oddity. Laid out a blue tarp (which now has burn holes in it) and the shells were pretty consistently dropping in the same 3'-4' area (at about my 4 o'clock)
Went back to the original buffer spring with no change.
I got the powder at a bargain, but not bargain enough to make this a dedicated bolt action AR
Crazy thing is I am getting dead on accuracy with these loads (well I quit shooting for accuracy after the first 5 or so load work ups)
Gonna keep at it. Now I'm just baffled. I thought for sure the lighter spring would do it (although...I didn't get lighter weight)
Good times. Still beats working
alta:
just out of curiosity, switch uppers. Put the PSA upper on your other lower and test fire
richkrt99:
Didn't have much time this weekend, but I did try and shoot some. I swapped uppers/lowers and same thing, replaced the bolt carrier in one with a nickel boron "spare". Went back to some of the 18.4 loads (of which I have about 250) and same result.
Went back to the drawing board and started at the very bottom load (based on 2021 Hornady book) which is 17.4g of (4198). Made 10 rounds and fired that and it is definitely light. Shoots on target, but had several cases not eject. Some do eject, but doesn't chamber the next round. And you can feel how light it is. I filmed it in slow motion with my phone, but it's not really slow enough to see if the bolt is sliding all the way back or not. I can't see a difference in the videos of the factory and hand loads. Maybe if I load the video to a LARGER screen, and had some frame by frame software I could see it, but not so much on the phone screen. I put alternating hand loads and factory loads in the same mag and all the factory loads fire, then the hand loads fire, but not chamber the next round. Consistently the same in both rifles. Go back to factory loads and both rifles function flawlessly.
By the way...the bolt is pulling back far enough to reset the trigger. I did notice (when shells fully eject), I pull the trigger and the hammer strikes and nothing. Early on I thought I was getting a misfire and then realized there is just no round in the chamber.
I've changed just about everything from primers to cases to rifles and get the same result. I thought maybe my primers were old and just wasn't quite getting it, but I've tried different batches (winchester, CCI, etc) and same thing. It's not that they aren't igniting or even firing...they just don't cycle the next round. From what I've read the CCI #41 primers are pretty hot so...and they were designed for gas guns
Only common denominators I can find in this equation are the powder and...
:pointdown:
the operator
I've tried searching the forums for any load data for this FSP-680 powder (Russian powder sold by Ft. Smith) and I can't find any.
I HAVE read several posts (in older forums) with the very same issues I'm having - not cycling the rounds.
Some have said they love 4198 and works well in their rifles and others have said they have to load at or above max data to cycle the round - and found it's not worth doing.
Most who actually posted their load data are well into the upper or above max published data. Also appears there is quite a range in that data and 2010 and older books published MUCH higher loads than more recent books. Most who got it to work found very good accuracy and clean burning. Also....most preferred IMR4198 to H4198 and it "appears" the H4198 needs a teeny bit higher load. However, I'm just using the data a "relative" starting point so....
Looks like I might need to acquire a new rifle chambered 7.62x39 to get use of this 15 pounds of powder :huh: :uh-huh:
Although, even after reading through several forums where folks are having issues, I find it odd that Hogden would publish load data for this round if it were to find so many problems.
alta:
I was bored yesterday so I did some more reading at M4 carbine dot com. One thing that's poped up repeatedly for a home assembled rifle that's having cycling issues is to make sure the gas port in the barrel is lined up with the hole in the gas block. A common mistake for newbies is to install the gas block right up against the shoulder on the barrel, its not supposed to be. Having said that, the hole in the gas block is always bigger than the one in the barrel to help avoid such things.
I do stock 4198 for the AR, but Im loading 6.8, and its at the top(or more) of the book listings. I have not experienced cycling issues with those loads, and Im running the heaviest buffer those rounds will cycle.
just checked the 6.8 middy, its got the A5 H4 buffer in it which the book says is 6.8 ounces, thats ironic. But like I said, Im running hot ammo.
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