Offseason starts

[chas]

DSP just signed a 1 for 1. I think he deserves more than that.

His numbers don't warrant it.  Really.  Yes, he is clutch but it's hard to translate that into a contract.  Without the post season people would ask why are making him can offer?  Another good season from him and I can see him getting $3m. 

[BlackIce]

His numbers don't warrant it.  Really.  Yes, he is clutch but it's hard to translate that into a contract.  Without the post season people would ask why are making him can offer?  Another good season from him and I can see him getting $3m.

Chas, this is a very astute observation.  Yes, maybe someone else would have signed him for a year or two, say for $1.3 million to $1.5 million AAV.  Maybe it would have worked out with his new team, maybe not, and if not, he fades back into oblivion.  But if he stays with the Caps, a team he is grateful to belong to, a team he feels very comfortable with, and has another good year, maybe he can get a longer contract next year, with more security.  Yes, I think his move is the move of an honorable man.  But it could also be his best chance for a steppingstone that would lead to a reasonably significant contract.  I don't know if he could get $3 million.  But if he could get someone to offer him, say, $2.5 million AAV for 4 years (his years 28-31 seasons, so it wouldn't be much of a gamble), he could be set for life if he uses his head about how he deals with the money.

[DC_1908]

   Those guys got caught pinching alot and when they were playing in their own end they were totally clueless back there. Now those guys were literally one dimensional  Housley is the worst defender I have EVER seen. You guys really shouldn't be ripping Carlson for his game. He is a 2way defenceman. He is better defensively than most offensive defenceman in the league.

While that certainly happened on occasion, and Housley was certainly never known for his D, and I don’t call many instances with Coffey. . .But I do recall The Wings seeing they needed to get tougher and smarter and trading their popular offensive Dman for a better player (Shannahan).


But either way, is “better” good enough? If Carlson’s points where 3/4, even half of his total, would his D be worth 8mil or what Sutter is paid?  Is he good enough on D, to shutdown the top scoring forward every shift every night? Or does he just not suck at D AS BAD as the likes of Kleinberg, and how is that good enough?


The offensiveDman/4th forward is popular with fans. The more teams use them, over pay them,  and become dependent on them, the more other teams will take advantage of it and exploit its risks.  We’ve seen  it happen to us for years,  until we went to trap and everyone player played the games of their life, but that’s to much to bet 8mill on that happening for 8 years.

[OldHat]

Tom Wilson might want to take issue with that statement.

What?  I think you misread.  Losing tougher guys makes the team softer.  Wilson can't be the only guy.

[OldHat]

Not sure why DSP only got that?  If he did not sign, was he going to arbitration?  Surely he would have gotten more than that in arbitration.

They did not give him a qualifying offer so no, he was not eligible for arbitration.  They did this on purpose because he would have likely gotten more in arb.  And reports are he had more lucrative offers but chose to take less to stay with the Caps.

[Maacoshark]

While that certainly happened on occasion, and Housley was certainly never known for his D, and I don’t call many instances with Coffey. . .But I do recall The Wings seaming they needed to get tougher and smarter and trading their popular offensive Dman for a better player (Shannahan).


But either way, is “better” good enough? If Carlson’s points where 3/4, even half of his total, would his D be worth 8mil or what Sutter is paid?  Is he good enough on D, to shutdown the top scoring forward every shift every night? Or does he just not suck at D AS BAD as the likes of Kleinberg, and how is that good enough?


The offensiveDman/4th forward is popular with fans. The more teams use them, over pay them,  and become dependent on them, the more other teams will take advantage of it and exploit its risks.  We’ve seen  it happen to us for years,  until we went to trap and everyone player played the games of their life, but that’s to much to bet 8mill on that happening for 8 years.

     I'm not sure how popular offensive defencemen are. Me personally, I dont like offense only defence men. I like good 2way defencemen and I also like the physical guys. Even better if it is a combination of everything. Like A guy like Shea Weber. I do consider Carlson a good 2way defenceman.
    One thing I have noticed about you DC is that you prefer physical guys. But that doesnt necessarily mean they are good defensively. Infact sometimes it is quite the opposite. Some guys are so intent on getting the big hit that they get caught out of position.

[Mickstix]

I don't have many issues with Carlson's actual "defense".. It's his decision making, usually below the goal line, that gets him in trouble, imo.. Or getting caught on a pinch every now a then..  Obviously his draw is the points, minutes and PP QB skills he has.. But Im just still not sure why they gave him 8x8.. Even 8x7 (years) would be much better for the Caps.. We get home town deals for guys like DSP.. Anyone with any clout or bargaining power at all rapes GMBM for the absolute MAX.. (Except for the coach of course.)

[DC_1908]

     I'm not sure how popular offensive defencemen are. Me personally, I dont like offense only defence men. I like good 2way defencemen and I also like the physical guys. Even better if it is a combination of everything. Like A guy like Shea Weber. I do consider Carlson a good 2way defenceman.
    One thing I have noticed about you DC is that you prefer physical guys. But that doesnt necessarily mean they are good defensively. Infact sometimes it is quite the opposite. Some guys are so intent on getting the big hit that they get caught out of position.

The old saying “Defense Wins Games, Offense Sells Tickets”, has proven prodomintly accurate throughout any sport.


In this case, if you take the most popular defenseman, the all-star vote getters, jersey sellers, highest salaries, and now a days e en Norris vote getters are offensive, if not offensive that play at least average D, with the minority being primary D, or shutdown Dmen. . .   So yeah, I would say they’re the most popular. 


I’m general I prefer smart defense-first defenseman.  With that considered I prefer physical Dmen over offensive.  They are harder to play against (particularly in the long term), give the goalie better protection, generally less risk, and generally more cap friendly allowing for a more for a deeper defense and deeper team.


Yes this appears to be contrary to “the way it is now”, but many teams are moving away from or not going with a “marque offensive Dman”, or lkeeoing on and just using him situational or on the PP, Vegas being the first that comes to mind.

[Devise]

I don't have many issues with Carlson's actual "defense".. It's his decision making, usually below the goal line, that gets him in trouble, imo.. Or getting caught on a pinch every now a then..  Obviously his draw is the points, minutes and PP QB skills he has.. But Im just still not sure why they gave him 8x8.. Even 8x7 (years) would be much better for the Caps.. We get home town deals for guys like DSP.. Anyone with any clout or bargaining power at all rapes GMBM for the absolute MAX.. (Except for the coach of course.)

Dead on regarding his defensive problems. I don't think those defending him realize it isn't his ability to play defense, it's just his mental game. When John Carlson is on he is a game changer. But he can sometimes get caught up in plays, overwhelmed, and mentally his hockey IQ just isn't as good, especially defensively.


But even then I've seen him make offensive reads, pinch when he shouldn't of or even just holding the blue sometimes. We give up tons of shorthanded changes gambling with him and Ovie on the back end, and while they both race back work harder now etc, let's not pretend it still doesn't happen where we have shorthanded breaks against because Carlson assumes he's got the puck on the blue line.


It's almost as if he gets a little too much swagger? He presumes it's his confident play as the only factor for it going well, and that leads to forgetting to constantly read the play, and one mis-read for a D with his kind of minutes sticks out like a sore thumb.

[alta]

In what world other than a fantasy world SHOULD Carlson's contract have been for 5 years or fewer?  The Caps had to pay what they did to keep him because it was a lead-pipe cinch that some other team would have paid him at least 8 million dollars a year for the maximum term that an outside team could have signed him for, 7 years, and it would have happened on July 1.


Just like losing Chimmer?  So the Caps lost Chimmer, and DSP was signed and now the Caps have a cup.  How was losing Chimera such a gut-wrenching experience?

Where did I even imply it should've been less than 5? Ima say it slower this time.

H  i  s    c  o  n  t  r  a  c  t     s  h  o  u  l  d  v  e     b  e  e  n     5     y  e  a  r  s 
j  u  s  t     b  e  c  a  u  s  e     o  f     t  h  e     c  a  p     h  i  t .

Losing Chimmer was gut wrenching?? Must've been for you because I didn't say that either. But it was plainly obvious the energy he brought was missing after the trade.

[BlackIce]

What?  I think you misread.  Losing tougher guys makes the team softer.  Wilson can't be the only guy.

I don't think I misread.  The original post said Orpik was essentially the last tough guy.  That isn't true.  Now as for how many "tough guys" you need on the team, I'll leave that to others to discuss.  But the statement as made wasn't true.

[alta]

His numbers don't warrant it.  Really.  Yes, he is clutch but it's hard to translate that into a contract.  Without the post season people would ask why are making him can offer?  Another good season from him and I can see him getting $3m.

I would've offered 1.25, maybe 1.5. He is definitely worth that, and I'm not counting just the post season in that observation.

[BlackIce]

Dead on regarding his defensive problems. I don't think those defending him realize it isn't his ability to play defense, it's just his mental game. When John Carlson is on he is a game changer. But he can sometimes get caught up in plays, overwhelmed, and mentally his hockey IQ just isn't as good, especially defensively.


But even then I've seen him make offensive reads, pinch when he shouldn't of or even just holding the blue sometimes. We give up tons of shorthanded changes gambling with him and Ovie on the back end, and while they both race back work harder now etc, let's not pretend it still doesn't happen where we have shorthanded breaks against because Carlson assumes he's got the puck on the blue line.


It's almost as if he gets a little too much swagger? He presumes it's his confident play as the only factor for it going well, and that leads to forgetting to constantly read the play, and one mis-read for a D with his kind of minutes sticks out like a sore thumb.

All of this talk about pinching defensemen is missing the point.  Carlson [and other defensemen] on the Caps aren't pinching and pushing the play because there is some lack of understanding on their part about the proper mix of their offensive and defensive roles.  They are playing this way precisely because THE ORGANIZATION WANTS THEM TO PLAY THIS WAY!  And as the role of defensemen in the offense continues to evolve, the Caps' organizational philosophy has tilted more and more in this direction.  I could even notice a significant change this past season.  A few years ago, you would NEVER have seen Brooks Orpik handling the puck below the offensive goal line.  I was amazed this past season how many times I saw Orpik pinch and then follow the puck below the goal line.  There is no way that this could be in his DNA -- the team/coaches must have been pushing him on this.  And whenever a defenseman pinches, it is up to other players to rotate and a forward take up a defensive position.  If you watch the play away from the puck you can see the rotation.  It doesn't necessarily come naturally for many forwards, but this year, by the time the playoffs rolled around you could see that the Caps forwards had finally picked it up and the coverage was generally very good.


This concept isn't easy to master, and teams can and do screw it up.  The first Caps goal, by Vrana, in Game 5 of the finals was precisely this kind of play; a Knights defenseman (Engelland??) pinched and got caught and no one covered for him, leaving Vrana all alone coming down the left wing side.


You can bet that, because of his offensive capabilities, Carlson is encouraged to pinch whenever he feels he has a reasonable chance to drive play in the offensive zone, probably more than any of the other defensemen.  It is up to someone else to cover when he does that.

[BlackIce]

Where did I even imply it should've been less than 5? Ima say it slower this time.

H  i  s    c  o  n  t  r  a  c  t     s  h  o  u  l  d  v  e     b  e  e  n     5     y  e  a  r  s 
j  u  s  t     b  e  c  a  u  s  e     o  f     t  h  e     c  a  p     h  i  t .

Losing Chimmer was gut wrenching?? Must've been for you because I didn't say that either. But it was plainly obvious the energy he brought was missing after the trade.

That isn't what you said originally.  You said his contract should have been 5 years AT BEST.  You conveniently dropped your qualifier this time, which suggests that less than 5 years should have been a consideration, or you would have been happy with less than 5, or something.  Or are you suggesting "at best" was just a phantom, throwaway comment?


I don't think Chimera brought all that much energy to Caps games.  He brought a hell of a lot of open-ice SPEED to Caps games, but when I think of "bringing energy" I think of guys who work the wall, who fight hard and consistently for the puck along the boards, who dog the puck trying to knock it loose from the opponents, who are generally a nuisance to play against.  Jay Beagle has made a career doing that.  T.J. brings energy.  DSP brought energy pretty consistently during the playoffs; during the regular season it was a little more sporadic.  Stephenson seemed to bring energy pretty consistently as he established himself.  When he was with the Caps, Ward did a good job of handling the puck when he had it or was cycling with his teammates.  He did not as good a job trying to get it away when we didn't have it.  When I think of "energy" guys, the ones I mentioned are the Caps I think of first and foremost.

[BlackIce]

That isn't what you said originally.  You said his contract should have been 5 years AT BEST.  You conveniently dropped your qualifier this time, which suggests that less than 5 years should have been a consideration, or you would have been happy with less than 5, or something.  Or are you suggesting "at best" was just a phantom, throwaway comment?


I don't think Chimera brought all that much energy to Caps games.  He brought a hell of a lot of open-ice SPEED to Caps games, but when I think of "bringing energy" I think of guys who work the wall, who fight hard and consistently for the puck along the boards, who dog the puck trying to knock it loose from the opponents, who are generally a nuisance to play against.  Jay Beagle has made a career doing that.  T.J. brings energy.  DSP brought energy pretty consistently during the playoffs; during the regular season it was a little more sporadic.  Stephenson seemed to bring energy pretty consistently as he established himself.  Wilson obviously brings energy.  When he was with the Caps, Ward did a good job of handling the puck when he had it or was cycling with his teammates.  He did not as good a job trying to get it away when we didn't have it.  When I think of "energy" guys, the ones I mentioned are the Caps I think of first and foremost.

[alta]

That isn't what you said originally.  You said his contract should have been 5 years AT BEST.  You conveniently dropped your qualifier this time, which suggests that less than 5 years should have been a consideration, or you would have been happy with less than 5, or something.  Or are you suggesting "at best" was just a phantom, throwaway comment?


I don't think Chimera brought all that much energy to Caps games.  He brought a hell of a lot of open-ice SPEED to Caps games, but when I think of "bringing energy" I think of guys who work the wall, who fight hard and consistently for the puck along the boards, who dog the puck trying to knock it loose from the opponents, who are generally a nuisance to play against.  Jay Beagle has made a career doing that.  T.J. brings energy.  DSP brought energy pretty consistently during the playoffs; during the regular season it was a little more sporadic.  Stephenson seemed to bring energy pretty consistently as he established himself.  When he was with the Caps, Ward did a good job of handling the puck when he had it or was cycling with his teammates.  He did not as good a job trying to get it away when we didn't have it.  When I think of "energy" guys, the ones I mentioned are the Caps I think of first and foremost.

Please quote me

[alta]

DSPs 1 for 1 is an awsome contract for the Caps. But they should've done better. Losing the energy DSP brings will be just like losing Chimmer. Carlsons contract should've been 5 years at best, because of the cap hit

There you go. Yep, there's the qualifier.."because of the cap hit"


I'm still trying to find the gut wrenching part

[dpf1971]

Staying out of the "you wrote this ... kind of ... but I know you meant that" conversations .... I think the DSP deal is great.  First off, if you are wondering why he took the deal, read the article about it on nhl.com.  And it being only a year means that if his playoff/cup play doesn't translate into better regular season play we can easily walk away from him.  Another good deal in my opinion.

[DC_1908]

All of this talk about pinching defensemen is missing the point.  Carlson [and other defensemen] on the Caps aren't pinching and pushing the play because there is some lack of understanding on their part about the proper mix of their offensive and defensive roles.  They are playing this way precisely because THE ORGANIZATION WANTS THEM TO PLAY THIS WAY!  And as the role of defensemen in the offense continues to evolve, the Caps' organizational philosophy has tilted more and more in this direction.  I could even notice a significant change this past season.  A few years ago, you would NEVER have seen Brooks Orpik handling the puck below the offensive goal line.  I was amazed this past season how many times I saw Orpik pinch and then follow the puck below the goal line.  There is no way that this could be in his DNA -- the team/coaches must have been pushing him on this.  And whenever a defenseman pinches, it is up to other players to rotate and a forward take up a defensive position.  If you watch the play away from the puck you can see the rotation.  It doesn't necessarily come naturally for many forwards, but this year, by the time the playoffs rolled around you could see that the Caps forwards had finally picked it up and the coverage was generally very good.


This concept isn't easy to master, and teams can and do screw it up.  The first Caps goal, by Vrana, in Game 5 of the finals was precisely this kind of play; a Knights defenseman (Engelland??) pinched and got caught and no one covered for him, leaving Vrana all alone coming down the left wing side.


You can bet that, because of his offensive capabilities, Carlson is encouraged to pinch whenever he feels he has a reasonable chance to drive play in the offensive zone, probably more than any of the other defensemen.  It is up to someone else to cover when he does that.

“THE ORGANIZATION WANTS THEM TO PLAY THIS WAY!” 

Yes, because playin that way sells tickets, videogames, hope, and entertainment, which is why you’re lovin this: entertainment.

[Maacoshark]

Dead on regarding his defensive problems. I don't think those defending him realize it isn't his ability to play defense, it's just his mental game. When John Carlson is on he is a game changer. But he can sometimes get caught up in plays, overwhelmed, and mentally his hockey IQ just isn't as good, especially defensively.


But even then I've seen him make offensive reads, pinch when he shouldn't of or even just holding the blue sometimes. We give up tons of shorthanded changes gambling with him and Ovie on the back end, and while they both race back work harder now etc, let's not pretend it still doesn't happen where we have shorthanded breaks against because Carlson assumes he's got the puck on the blue line.


It's almost as if he gets a little too much swagger? He presumes it's his confident play as the only factor for it going well, and that leads to forgetting to constantly read the play, and one mis-read for a D with his kind of minutes sticks out like a sore thumb.

    I think defensively Carlson is fine. He plays good man to man coverage in the defensive zone. I have found his problem hasn't been his play defensively. He has some brain farts when trying to get out if the zone. He turns the puck over quite a bit exiting the zone.