Author Topic: Guns and Blowin Shit Up!  (Read 23225 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline richkrt99

  • Oh, I'm the Hillbilly
  • Hockey Deity
  • ******
  • Posts: 5777
  • Likes: 775
  • Bigger than yours!
Re: Guns and Blowin Shit Up!
« Reply #200 on: Monday July 26, 2021, 07:32:31 PM Eastern »
I went back to my Hornady book (10th edition) and it was actually where I got the 18.4gr starting point for the "4198"  The load actually says 18.4 to 21.x?


I shot a few more of that batch with the same result.  Bumped up the load to 19.0gr.  Same result.  20.0 and same result.  It was about 8pm so I quit there.
Either the powder is not as "similar" to 4198 as expected or ....I don't know what.


I was very careful in checking the powder measurement, etc.  I'm using CCI #41 primers that I bought new last year.  Couple hundred rounds of the brass from early rounds was actually primed brass I got from a guy in Tidewater, but it all looked very good and new (and same result)


I am a little curious about the OAL I'm getting.  All my brass is trimmed to 1.752.  My initial loads with IMI 55Gr bullets with a cannelure.  (I do a light taper crimp on the cannelure).  With the IMI bullets, OAL is right at 2.25 which is what most of the data says as far as OAL.
With my MidSouth Supply 55Gr bullets (with cannelure), I had to shorten OAL to 2.205 to be in the cannelure, which is shorter than the data suggests.  I went back and looked and these are Hornady FMJ BT bullets. (No they are not Hornady, but some no name, but are 55GR FMJ)  Looking at the bullets you can easily see a visible difference in that they are shorter stubbier and less "pointy".  I lay them side by side (just the bullet) and these bullets are shorter in length.  (The weight is dead on so I guess it's just a different shape overall)  I am confused here because all the Hornady data says 2.230" OAL.  If I set to that length it will completely miss the cannelure.  (not Hornady bullets though)


So I just downloaded the "new" edition load data from Hornady and it NOW shows .223 load data for 4198 starting at 19.3 up to 24.0 max.  (that's up a couple full grains on the max end)  They don't show a 5.56 load using the 4198 powder.
I loaded at 20 and still get a failure to cycle on nearly every round.  They are firing on target and ejecting shell but no feed.  I'd swear it was the rifle except it does exact same thing in two different rifles.  I go back to some PMC factory rounds and cycles like a champ.


Gonna keep tweaking it, but I'm in the load range given by the data and no joy.  My number 1 goal is to NOT blow anything up.  I've looked at both .223 and 5.56 Hornady loads and the max is about the same comparing one to another with various powders.


just another day in "as Rich's reloading life turns"
FFS - HIT HIM!!!

Offline richkrt99

  • Oh, I'm the Hillbilly
  • Hockey Deity
  • ******
  • Posts: 5777
  • Likes: 775
  • Bigger than yours!
Re: Guns and Blowin Shit Up!
« Reply #201 on: Monday August 02, 2021, 08:24:21 PM Eastern »
Changed the buffer spring to a lightweight spring and same result.  (although I did not change the buffer weight - didn't realize the weight did not come with the spring)


Bumped up the load to 21.0 then to 22.0


Same result....although at 21, I did get some to cycle.  and at 21/22 I was sometimes getting the next round to jamb on the feed ramp with the bolt trapping it before seating into the barrel.  Thought I was headed toward success, but....No


At 22 - I'm starting to get flattened primers and I did get a shell stuck (lightly)  Pulled the charging handle and it popped out.  Don't see any leaks or bulges, but the primer is slightly flattened on the end.


At 23 - flattened primers, stuck brass (2/10) and still no feed


I keep thinking it's the rifle like maybe something wrong with the feed ramp or ejector, but nearly 100% eject properly but the next round doesn't cycle.  Thought maybe a bad catch or thinkamajig on the bolt wasn't catching the next round.  (Cause it wasn't jamming on the feed - it just isn't feeding)  Even swapped the bolt out (actually did that way back early in this drama when I was cleaning it and bent the damn firing pin retaining pin, so I just grabbed an extra bolt I had purchased for the next build)  But every time I go back to factory ammo (PMC 55gr) and it cycles like a champ.  (Using the very same 2 or 3 Pmag mags, with 3, 5, 10, 20, and 30 rounds - flawless with the PMC ammo)
I even watched where my shells were ejecting to see if I could see some oddity.  Laid out a blue tarp (which now has burn holes in it) and the shells were pretty consistently dropping in the same 3'-4' area (at about my 4 o'clock)


Went back to the original buffer spring with no change.


I got the powder at a bargain, but not bargain enough to make this a dedicated bolt action AR


Crazy thing is I am getting dead on accuracy with these loads  (well I quit shooting for accuracy after the first 5 or so load work ups)


Gonna keep at it.  Now I'm just baffled.  I thought for sure the lighter spring would do it (although...I didn't get lighter weight)


Good times.  Still beats working
FFS - HIT HIM!!!

Online alta

  • I don't swing that way
  • Global Moderator
  • Hockey Deity
  • ******
  • Posts: 17225
  • Likes: 2139
  • just say no, to socialism
Re: Guns and Blowin Shit Up!
« Reply #202 on: Monday August 02, 2021, 09:37:24 PM Eastern »
just out of curiosity, switch uppers. Put the PSA upper on your other lower and test fire
Knowledge is knowing that the Tomato is a fruit; Wisdom is knowing that you shouldn't include it in a Fruit Salad

"Oh bother" said Poo, as he chambered another round

Offline richkrt99

  • Oh, I'm the Hillbilly
  • Hockey Deity
  • ******
  • Posts: 5777
  • Likes: 775
  • Bigger than yours!
Re: Guns and Blowin Shit Up!
« Reply #203 on: Monday August 16, 2021, 12:26:15 PM Eastern »
Didn't have much time this weekend, but I did try and shoot some.  I swapped uppers/lowers and same thing, replaced the bolt carrier in one with a nickel boron "spare".  Went back to some of the 18.4 loads (of which I have about 250) and same result. 

Went back to the drawing board and started at the very bottom load (based on 2021 Hornady book) which is 17.4g of (4198).  Made 10 rounds and fired that and it is definitely light.  Shoots on target, but had several cases not eject.  Some do eject, but doesn't chamber the next round. And you can feel how light it is.  I filmed it in slow motion with my phone, but it's not really slow enough to see if the bolt is sliding all the way back or not.  I can't see a difference in the videos of the factory and hand loads.  Maybe if I load the video to a LARGER screen, and had some frame by frame software I could see it, but not so much on the phone screen.  I put alternating hand loads and factory loads in the same mag and all the factory loads fire, then the hand loads fire, but not chamber the next round.  Consistently the same in both rifles.  Go back to factory loads and both rifles function flawlessly.
By the way...the bolt is pulling back far enough to reset the trigger.  I did notice (when shells fully eject), I pull the trigger and the hammer strikes and nothing.  Early on I thought I was getting a misfire and then realized there is just no round in the chamber.

I've changed just about everything from primers to cases to rifles and get the same result. I thought maybe my primers were old and just wasn't quite getting it, but I've tried different batches (winchester, CCI, etc) and same thing.  It's not that they aren't igniting or even firing...they just don't cycle the next round.  From what I've read the CCI #41 primers are pretty hot so...and they were designed for gas guns

Only common denominators I can find in this equation are the powder and...
     :pointdown:
 the operator


I've tried searching the forums for any load data for this FSP-680 powder (Russian powder sold by Ft. Smith) and I can't find any.


I HAVE read several posts (in older forums) with the very same issues I'm having - not cycling the rounds.
Some have said they love 4198 and works well in their rifles and others have said they have to load at or above max data to cycle the round - and found it's not worth doing.
Most who actually posted their load data are well into the upper or above max published data.  Also appears there is quite a range in that data and 2010 and older books published MUCH higher loads than more recent books.  Most who got it to work found very good accuracy and clean burning.  Also....most preferred IMR4198 to H4198 and it "appears" the H4198 needs a teeny bit higher load.  However, I'm just using the data a "relative" starting point so....


Looks like I might need to acquire a new rifle chambered 7.62x39 to get use of this 15 pounds of powder  :huh: :uh-huh:


Although, even after reading through several forums where folks are having issues, I find it odd that Hogden would publish load data for this round if it were to find so many problems.
FFS - HIT HIM!!!

Online alta

  • I don't swing that way
  • Global Moderator
  • Hockey Deity
  • ******
  • Posts: 17225
  • Likes: 2139
  • just say no, to socialism
Re: Guns and Blowin Shit Up!
« Reply #204 on: Monday August 16, 2021, 12:48:14 PM Eastern »
I was bored yesterday so I did some more reading at M4 carbine dot com. One thing that's poped up repeatedly for a home assembled rifle that's having cycling issues is to make sure the gas port in the barrel is lined up with the hole in the gas block. A common mistake for newbies is to install the gas block right up against the shoulder on the barrel, its not supposed to be. Having said that, the hole in the gas block is always bigger than the one in the barrel to help avoid such things.

I do stock 4198 for the AR, but Im loading 6.8, and its at the top(or more) of the book listings. I have not experienced cycling issues with those loads, and Im running the heaviest buffer those rounds will cycle.

just checked the 6.8 middy, its got the A5 H4 buffer in it which the book says is 6.8 ounces, thats ironic. But like I said, Im running hot ammo.
Knowledge is knowing that the Tomato is a fruit; Wisdom is knowing that you shouldn't include it in a Fruit Salad

"Oh bother" said Poo, as he chambered another round

Offline richkrt99

  • Oh, I'm the Hillbilly
  • Hockey Deity
  • ******
  • Posts: 5777
  • Likes: 775
  • Bigger than yours!
Re: Guns and Blowin Shit Up!
« Reply #205 on: Tuesday August 24, 2021, 06:06:18 PM Eastern »
Well I WAS considering building an AR platform utilizing a 7.62 x39 cartridge....OR honestly considering an AK style for my "next gun", BUT....


thanks to Sleepy Joe and his Russian ammo ban....Why bother?  All the fargon AK ammo is going to skyrocket in cost.


If they aren't making up ways to make legit gun parts illegal - they just going to make it impossible (or impossibly expensive) to get ammo.


But hey - let's keep that stuff out of law abiding citizens' hands, but yet by all means leave a crapload of ordinance in Afghanistan for the Taliban to use against us and our allies.






FFS - HIT HIM!!!

Offline richkrt99

  • Oh, I'm the Hillbilly
  • Hockey Deity
  • ******
  • Posts: 5777
  • Likes: 775
  • Bigger than yours!
Re: Guns and Blowin Shit Up!
« Reply #206 on: Tuesday August 24, 2021, 06:44:30 PM Eastern »
I was bored yesterday so I did some more reading at M4 carbine dot com. One thing that's poped up repeatedly for a home assembled rifle that's having cycling issues is to make sure the gas port in the barrel is lined up with the hole in the gas block. A common mistake for newbies is to install the gas block right up against the shoulder on the barrel, its not supposed to be. Having said that, the hole in the gas block is always bigger than the one in the barrel to help avoid such things.

I do stock 4198 for the AR, but Im loading 6.8, and its at the top(or more) of the book listings. I have not experienced cycling issues with those loads, and Im running the heaviest buffer those rounds will cycle.

just checked the 6.8 middy, its got the A5 H4 buffer in it which the book says is 6.8 ounces, thats ironic. But like I said, Im running hot ammo.


I assembled one of my lower "Kits" this weekend.  PSA Multi "Liberty" lower with (slightly) upgraded trigger, Hogue soft grip, and Hogue over molded stock (standard buffer & tube) and mounted .223 Wylde upper with 18" stainless barrel and Nickel Boron BCG.  Looks good.


But.....It won't cycle this friggin load either.  I did not think it had a chance, but figured I'd give it a shot.  I believe the trigger has a harder hammer strike, so I was hoping maybe that or the longer barrel would maybe make a difference, but ignition didn't really seem to be my issue.  Also, the pull on the charging handle (buffer spring) seems really heavy, but I know it's a standard buffer spring.  Maybe I'll pop the lighter spring in there, but FFS I really don't think it will matter.
I now have three distinct AR guns that all fire flawlessly with factory ammo (PMC 55gr, Hornady 55gr-5.56 Frontier, some 15 year old shit I haven't used up, some walmart greentip from 10 years ago), as well as my initial IMR 4064 hand loaded rounds.  All of this fires and cycles through every gun without issue.


I have swapped uppers and lowers from gun to gun, tried different buffer spring, swapped BCG, changed firing pins and bolts, loaded hotter and hotter until flattening primers and stuck cases and still can't get this to work.  Tried different primers, different bullets, etc.  I thought I must have just totally messed up the initial loads and mis-measured the powder, but I started over 10 rounds at a time and still get nothing.  The powder is NEW and dry.


I have not tried a LIGHTER bullet yet (or a heavier one).  All the data I can find for 4198 uses 55gr and below.  I thought I had some 52gr bullets, but I do not.  I have a few 62 and 75, but no load data for those with 4198


I see there's load data for 7.62 x 39 Russian (which I was considering building), but Sleepy Joe says no, no, no  :raised-eyebrow:


Having fun building though  :wackysmile: .  Maybe some day I can shoot one of them more than a few rounds at a time.
FFS - HIT HIM!!!

Online alta

  • I don't swing that way
  • Global Moderator
  • Hockey Deity
  • ******
  • Posts: 17225
  • Likes: 2139
  • just say no, to socialism
Re: Guns and Blowin Shit Up!
« Reply #207 on: Tuesday August 24, 2021, 06:51:00 PM Eastern »
I love my nickle boron coated BCGs, but its still an AR and they still need lube. I put one together one once that then sat in the safe for several months. When I finally took it to the range I forgot to lube the bolt /carrier. After two shots I was having feed issues, I then had that doh moment. Pulled out the bottle of lube and its run flawlessly ever since.

and 55 grain is the lightest bullet Id run through an AR, unless I lived out west in prairie dog country. Then a 45 would suffice, and only for prairie dogs. As it is, i like 62-77.
Knowledge is knowing that the Tomato is a fruit; Wisdom is knowing that you shouldn't include it in a Fruit Salad

"Oh bother" said Poo, as he chambered another round

Online alta

  • I don't swing that way
  • Global Moderator
  • Hockey Deity
  • ******
  • Posts: 17225
  • Likes: 2139
  • just say no, to socialism
Re: Guns and Blowin Shit Up!
« Reply #208 on: Tuesday August 24, 2021, 08:57:11 PM Eastern »
it also seems to me you are ignoring buffer weight and thinking too much about buffer spring weight. There are different weight springs, but thats for ultra fine tuning, not getting the rifle to cycle. In fact, if you aren't shooting competition, the standard buffer spring is more than sufficient.



so, based on what you've posted til now, I'd say lube and/or a lighter buffer weight will fix your problems
Knowledge is knowing that the Tomato is a fruit; Wisdom is knowing that you shouldn't include it in a Fruit Salad

"Oh bother" said Poo, as he chambered another round

Offline richkrt99

  • Oh, I'm the Hillbilly
  • Hockey Deity
  • ******
  • Posts: 5777
  • Likes: 775
  • Bigger than yours!
Re: Guns and Blowin Shit Up!
« Reply #209 on: Wednesday August 25, 2021, 12:15:57 PM Eastern »
I recently stumbled across four boxes (80) rounds of some .223 I bought with my original AR, which I purchased in the late 90's  (98 or 99).
It was in the pockets of one of my soft rifle cases.  It is South African and has a picture of an antelope on the box  ;D


It shoots fine - been stored in a cool & dry place indoors (in my bedroom closet)
FFS - HIT HIM!!!

Offline richkrt99

  • Oh, I'm the Hillbilly
  • Hockey Deity
  • ******
  • Posts: 5777
  • Likes: 775
  • Bigger than yours!
Re: Guns and Blowin Shit Up!
« Reply #210 on: Thursday August 26, 2021, 09:39:34 AM Eastern »
it also seems to me you are ignoring buffer weight and thinking too much about buffer spring weight. There are different weight springs, but thats for ultra fine tuning, not getting the rifle to cycle. In fact, if you aren't shooting competition, the standard buffer spring is more than sufficient.



so, based on what you've posted til now, I'd say lube and/or a lighter buffer weight will fix your problems


Oh, my baby is lubed up.  My original Bushmaster AR taught me she likes to run wet.
Honestly, when I bought the lighter buffer spring (online) I THOUGHT it came with a lighter weight, but it did not.


If I could get more than an hour or two every two or three weekends or so, I might be able to get it going.

FFS - HIT HIM!!!

Online alta

  • I don't swing that way
  • Global Moderator
  • Hockey Deity
  • ******
  • Posts: 17225
  • Likes: 2139
  • just say no, to socialism
Re: Guns and Blowin Shit Up!
« Reply #211 on: Thursday August 26, 2021, 12:48:34 PM Eastern »
ok, I just re read all your issues with the .223. This is all with used brass? I'm starting to think this may be part of the problem, at least with hard extraction. Also, clean the chambers real good and take a good look at them. They should look smooth, no rough spots. Its not unheard of for a chamber to need a light polish. Internal polish on a firearm does not mean make it look like a mirror, it means getting rid of rough edges left by tooling marks. This still doesn't explain the failure to feed though, unless the cases are so out of spec as to be causing that as well. I have had bad brass before, though it's been a few years. But given the shelf life of this stuff it very well could still be in circulation.

When you say failure to load, I assume the bolt is not going back far enough to pick up the next round. That can only be a couple on things. No lube/not enough lube, under powered loads, or the buffer is too heavy for the load. A heavy buffer increases the mass the bolt needs to push back, basic physics. Im guessing a rough chamber could contribute to it, but you dont have an issue with factory ammo.

The only thing I use used/range pickup brass in is semi auto hand guns, and only once. Two things, you can full length resize straight wall cases. and with used brass you never know how many times its already been fired. It is, or was cheap, so Id get some occasionally for range use. Load it once and leave it lie.

The vast majority of my reloading is for hand guns. I will keep the cylinder(revolver) or barrel(semi) at the press with me when loading a given cartridge and use them to make sure completed rounds drop in and out freely. This can be done with a rifle too, they make tools for that..

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1018249683

One more thing, is this only with the russian powder? Or with the 4198 as well? Its probably been a good 15 years since Ive heard about a bad batch of powder, but thats not impossible either.

I have been tempted a few times to buy once fired 5.56 or .308 brass. Never have though. All my rifle brass is new. The past 18 months are different though, supplies have never been this tight. The remington ammo plant is back up and running after it was shut down from the backruptcy, so that should help.
Knowledge is knowing that the Tomato is a fruit; Wisdom is knowing that you shouldn't include it in a Fruit Salad

"Oh bother" said Poo, as he chambered another round

Offline ArJunaZ

  • ♂ ☺n Probation!
  • Administrator
  • Hockey Deity
  • ******
  • Posts: 13966
  • Likes: 1527
  • What's Ghey Pride?
Re: Guns and Blowin Shit Up!
« Reply #212 on: Thursday September 02, 2021, 11:35:37 PM Eastern »
Didn't have much time this weekend, but I did try and shoot some.  I swapped uppers/lowers and same thing, replaced the bolt carrier in one with a nickel boron "spare".  Went back to some of the 18.4 loads (of which I have about 250) and same result. 

Went back to the drawing board and started at the very bottom load (based on 2021 Hornady book) which is 17.4g of (4198).  Made 10 rounds and fired that and it is definitely light.  Shoots on target, but had several cases not eject.  Some do eject, but doesn't chamber the next round. And you can feel how light it is.  I filmed it in slow motion with my phone, but it's not really slow enough to see if the bolt is sliding all the way back or not.  I can't see a difference in the videos of the factory and hand loads.  Maybe if I load the video to a LARGER screen, and had some frame by frame software I could see it, but not so much on the phone screen.  I put alternating hand loads and factory loads in the same mag and all the factory loads fire, then the hand loads fire, but not chamber the next round.  Consistently the same in both rifles.  Go back to factory loads and both rifles function flawlessly.
By the way...the bolt is pulling back far enough to reset the trigger.  I did notice (when shells fully eject), I pull the trigger and the hammer strikes and nothing.  Early on I thought I was getting a misfire and then realized there is just no round in the chamber.

I've changed just about everything from primers to cases to rifles and get the same result. I thought maybe my primers were old and just wasn't quite getting it, but I've tried different batches (winchester, CCI, etc) and same thing.  It's not that they aren't igniting or even firing...they just don't cycle the next round.  From what I've read the CCI #41 primers are pretty hot so...and they were designed for gas guns

Only common denominators I can find in this equation are the powder and...
     :pointdown:
 the operator


I've tried searching the forums for any load data for this FSP-680 powder (Russian powder sold by Ft. Smith) and I can't find any.


I HAVE read several posts (in older forums) with the very same issues I'm having - not cycling the rounds.
Some have said they love 4198 and works well in their rifles and others have said they have to load at or above max data to cycle the round - and found it's not worth doing.
Most who actually posted their load data are well into the upper or above max published data.  Also appears there is quite a range in that data and 2010 and older books published MUCH higher loads than more recent books.  Most who got it to work found very good accuracy and clean burning.  Also....most preferred IMR4198 to H4198 and it "appears" the H4198 needs a teeny bit higher load.  However, I'm just using the data a "relative" starting point so....


Looks like I might need to acquire a new rifle chambered 7.62x39 to get use of this 15 pounds of powder  :huh: :uh-huh:


Although, even after reading through several forums where folks are having issues, I find it odd that Hogden would publish load data for this round if it were to find so many problems.

Those books are too conservative IMO.  Lawyers got a hand in them.  I have and use both IMR 4198 and Hodgdon H4198.  Both are made for very light loads in .223/5.56, like UP TO 55gr.  55gr will need a higher load of powder.   I recommend trying 20-21gr IMR or 21-22gr Hodgdon.  That should cycle most functioning AR15.

I have used 22gr of either powder with Hornady 55gr FMJ-BT bullets and never had an issue with either gas impingement or piston uppers.  I must add that all but one of my AR15's are short barrels, 16", 14.5" or 10.5".  Longer barrels (gas port further down barrel) may struggle with these 4198 powders and the heavier loads like 55gr.

Regarding another question I saw posted here.  I have a bunch or AR15 rifles and the only time I ever played with buffer weight was to change the cyclic rate of my M16/M4.
Be careful what you ask for America; you just might get it.

Online alta

  • I don't swing that way
  • Global Moderator
  • Hockey Deity
  • ******
  • Posts: 17225
  • Likes: 2139
  • just say no, to socialism
Re: Guns and Blowin Shit Up!
« Reply #213 on: Friday September 03, 2021, 11:16:41 AM Eastern »
Theoretically, you should never have to change buffer weight. We all know how that goes.

ARs from the factory are notorious for being over gassed. But they need to be for it to be functional with the wide range of ammo that's commercially available, and at a wide range of temperatures, like using the same gun and ammo in both Alaska in the winter and Phoenix in the summer. Cheep range ammo isn't as hot, doesn't produce as much gas as high end self defense/hunting/true 5.56 does. In the past few years manufacturers have gotten better at drilling a proper sized gas port.

People that only shoot the high end stuff tend to tune the gun for that ammo. Two ways to do that. A heavier buffer which slows down lock time, send more gas down the barrel. Or an adjustable gas block.  Some think an adjustable gas block is only really necessary on a gun that uses a suppressor, but not full time. A suppressor sends a lot more gas into the gas system, and the users face.

Also, the AR has become the adult version of tinker toys, people love to tinker with it. It's important to learn what those changes do and if they are necessary.
Knowledge is knowing that the Tomato is a fruit; Wisdom is knowing that you shouldn't include it in a Fruit Salad

"Oh bother" said Poo, as he chambered another round

Offline richkrt99

  • Oh, I'm the Hillbilly
  • Hockey Deity
  • ******
  • Posts: 5777
  • Likes: 775
  • Bigger than yours!
Re: Guns and Blowin Shit Up!
« Reply #214 on: Tuesday September 07, 2021, 11:43:08 AM Eastern »
So I tinkered just a teeny bit yesterday.  Finally got a lighter buffer weight in and tried that in the 18" Wylde.  2.2 oz buffer.  Still did not cycle.  I should have swapped it to the 16" carbine, but didn't.  Had lots going on (mostly dropping a dead oak tree and cutting that up which was long overdue).  By the time I got to the hobby, I just didn't have much time or mostly energy.  Tree whooped my ass - as I am old and out of shape (okay, I'm older and fat).  (Today I can barely stand up straight) :-\


I actually also recently got an Armaspec Stealth recoil spring, which I tried with the same end result.  ( I do like it in my 16" gun with factory rounds though)


I've tried both new and used brass.  although I have only limited amount of new brass.  All the "used" brass is supposedly 1x fired and I know that the "personal" supply portion is only x fired.  I have all my brass separated by brands/batches as well as number of times fired.   (I did trim all the used brass to length and resize, etc.)  I don't "think" it's the brass as I didn't have any issue with the brass with other powders (IMR4064).  AND....some of it was new brass.


Also, with the recent ongoing building hobby, I now have three completed and different AR guns all of which treat this batch of loads relatively the same.  3 Guns:  A) 20+ year old Bushmaster 16" A2 model, B) newish PSA build 16" barrel, mid-length gas, and the "newest"; C) 18" stainless Wylde, rifle length gas.  Both of these "builds" were factory assembled uppers and I did the lowers.  I also have one more assembled upper (16" mid length) I have swapped in for testing, as well as several different BCG, etc.
All react the same - cycle fine with factory ammo and the IMR4064 hand loads, yet short cycle on the "Russian 4198".  I can actually feel the load is light.  It fires fine, ejects the shell 90% of the time, but almost never cycles the next round.  Occasionally I get a stuck case, which I don't understand either.
With the factory buffers, all three guns cycle well with factory 223 and 5.56 ammo I have.


What I don't get is weeks/months ago, I slowly worked the load up and up and up from 18.5 to 22.5.
At 22.5 I was getting flattened primers and stuck cases.


I know the 4198 is not ideal .223 55GR, but I DID find published loads for it so I figured it would work at least for plinking (which is all I was after).  I read a bunch of forums and this seams to be a common problem.  Lot's of folks find it works fine and many find it won't cycle properly.  With 16lbs of it....I certainly want to try and get a load that I can work.
It's Russian powder FSP-680 sold through Ft Smith..."most similar" to 4198. It is new powder made in 2020-2021



FFS - HIT HIM!!!

Online alta

  • I don't swing that way
  • Global Moderator
  • Hockey Deity
  • ******
  • Posts: 17225
  • Likes: 2139
  • just say no, to socialism
Re: Guns and Blowin Shit Up!
« Reply #215 on: Tuesday September 07, 2021, 12:31:01 PM Eastern »
Like I said, I use 4198 in a couple ARs without issue, it's not apples to apples with you because it's in 6.8spc, but it's damn close. It starting to sound like its a powder issue.

I don't think you will find an answer on a regular reloading forum. Most of those guys are old school and have limited experience, if any, with an AR. Some of them even despise it. I've got stories. Have you signed up at M4 carbine dot net? Those guys know their shit. Ask about in the reloading section. You need to be very specific, this is no different than getting a doctors diagnoses over the phone. AR15 dot com isn't the same place it was 10 years ago IMHO.
Knowledge is knowing that the Tomato is a fruit; Wisdom is knowing that you shouldn't include it in a Fruit Salad

"Oh bother" said Poo, as he chambered another round

Offline richkrt99

  • Oh, I'm the Hillbilly
  • Hockey Deity
  • ******
  • Posts: 5777
  • Likes: 775
  • Bigger than yours!
Re: Guns and Blowin Shit Up!
« Reply #216 on: Tuesday September 07, 2021, 12:52:21 PM Eastern »
On a more "fun" note....


My response to Sleepy Joe and his illegal ban on Russian imported ammo...


"F" him.  Building me an "AR-47" just because.
I assembled the upper Saturday.  First time actually mounting a gas block and barrel.  Not too bad.  Had a hard time getting the barrel nut (Aero adapter for the hand guard) mounted because I don't have a proper vice block.  Had to get the nut to about 60lbs torque to rotate it to perfect alignment.  I probably could have removed and installed one of the supplied shims and got it rotated at 30-40 lbs but I'm stubborn and only needed another couple degrees to get it right so I kept at it.


Now I'm on a budget and get parts cheap when available; ALL were sale items:


AR Stoner 7.62x39 heavy contour barrel, mid length gas
AR Stoner Bolt Carrier Group
MBS Carbine length tube, low profile gas block
AERO M4E1 Upper
AERO Atlas R-One mlok rail (I splurged on this and like it ALOT)
AERO blemished lower (yet to arrive - actually probably at my FFL, but I have not checked)
Hogue overmold carbine stock & Buffer
Hiperfire EDT trigger (supposed to have heavy hammer strike for that pesky steel cased ammo)


What I am still missing:
Enhanced firing pin for harder strikes (I've heard this is a must for AR build in 7.62x39)
Grip (I have several laying around)
muzzle break/flash hider


I threw the assembled upper onto one of my ready AR lowers and off we go...


Only 7.62x39 ammo I have is Wolf steel case.  As rumored.....light hammer strikes on 4 of the 20 rounds I fired.  (Guess I really DO need that enhanced firing pin.)  It is my understanding the enhancement is the shoulder on the firing pin is a bit further down, so you get effectively a longer pin so the tip strikes the primer harder
Other than that everything seems to work.  Good cycle, no jams (other than the light strikes)
The PSA lower I used has a standard FCG in it so hoping when I get the lower assembled with the heavier trigger it will get better and the enhanced pin will solve the light hammer strikes altogether (if I ever find one - everywhere I have looked is always out of stock)





FFS - HIT HIM!!!

Offline richkrt99

  • Oh, I'm the Hillbilly
  • Hockey Deity
  • ******
  • Posts: 5777
  • Likes: 775
  • Bigger than yours!
Re: Guns and Blowin Shit Up!
« Reply #217 on: Tuesday September 07, 2021, 12:55:30 PM Eastern »
And the Wylde one....


18" stainless Wylde barrel
PSA nickel Boron BCG
Hogue overmold stock, grip
Hiperfire EDT SS trigger
Vortex Strike Eagle 1-6 x 24 scope


This is going to be my target gun...eventually

FFS - HIT HIM!!!

Online alta

  • I don't swing that way
  • Global Moderator
  • Hockey Deity
  • ******
  • Posts: 17225
  • Likes: 2139
  • just say no, to socialism
Re: Guns and Blowin Shit Up!
« Reply #218 on: Tuesday September 07, 2021, 05:38:48 PM Eastern »
Before I built my first one, I researched building these things for a good six months. Complete upper and lower assembly is incredibly easy, if you know who to use a wrench without constantly stripping treads. The bigger issue with the flood of vendors in the last 15-20 years is knowing which ones offer quality parts. Some of the stuff you will find is for the air soft market and will not hold up in a real gun. If the rifle is really going to get shot a lot, more than a couple thousand rounds a year, you want top shelf parts. Most people won't put a couple hundred rounds through one a year. Pre covid I was closer to the couple thousand rounds a year.

When a top shelf factory rifle is recommended for high use, it's usually close to a $2000 rifle. I never could understand that price point, until I built a couple the way I wanted with top shelf parts. It's not hard to go over that mark before buying optics.

I had considered building one in 7.62x39 so that got researched as well. I ended up not doing it as I've already got other options. Appearently, the trick to get a reliable 7.62x39 AR is all in the magazine. I saved that info somewhere, I'll see if I can find it.


...


it appears Duramag and C-Products are the preferred mags for 7.62x39 in an AR. I use C-Products for the 6.8. No complaints.
Knowledge is knowing that the Tomato is a fruit; Wisdom is knowing that you shouldn't include it in a Fruit Salad

"Oh bother" said Poo, as he chambered another round

Offline richkrt99

  • Oh, I'm the Hillbilly
  • Hockey Deity
  • ******
  • Posts: 5777
  • Likes: 775
  • Bigger than yours!
Re: Guns and Blowin Shit Up!
« Reply #219 on: Tuesday September 07, 2021, 09:22:04 PM Eastern »
Before I built my first one, I researched building these things for a good six months. Complete upper and lower assembly is incredibly easy, if you know who to use a wrench without constantly stripping treads. The bigger issue with the flood of vendors in the last 15-20 years is knowing which ones offer quality parts. Some of the stuff you will find is for the air soft market and will not hold up in a real gun. If the rifle is really going to get shot a lot, more than a couple thousand rounds a year, you want top shelf parts. Most people won't put a couple hundred rounds through one a year. Pre covid I was closer to the couple thousand rounds a year.

When a top shelf factory rifle is recommended for high use, it's usually close to a $2000 rifle. I never could understand that price point, until I built a couple the way I wanted with top shelf parts. It's not hard to go over that mark before buying optics.

I had considered building one in 7.62x39 so that got researched as well. I ended up not doing it as I've already got other options. Appearently, the trick to get a reliable 7.62x39 AR is all in the magazine. I saved that info somewhere, I'll see if I can find it.


...


it appears Duramag and C-Products are the preferred mags for 7.62x39 in an AR. I use C-Products for the 6.8. No complaints.


That's funny.  I heard the same thing.  I actually watched a video from Mr GunsNGear recently (although I don't know when the video was actually from) where he reviewed some mags for the AR build of 7.62x39 and mentioned those two specifically.  Also saw a video of his where he tried to destroy PSA's AK mag (actually for an AK) and it held up better than expected.
I actually was GOING TO GO the Grendel route, but I'm really not long range shooting precision shooting and I have a decent AR-10/.308 that will reach farther than I am capable of shooting....so
I thought I'd try the "AR-47" version for up close contact with a bit more thump.  That and I wanted something with fairly available and cheap ammo if it ever comes to that.
I looked at an actual AK, but in my price point, could not swallow that pill.....and honestly I know they are ultra reliable time tested, but the stamped steel just looks cheap to me.  Couldn't get past it.  And I already have so much AR stuff....


Anyway, we shall see.


I think the one mag have have for it currently is a AR Stoner mag cause that's what Midway had and I got the barrel and BCG there on sale.  It did function for my very short test.
I believe I ordered one C products mags and one other from Brownells, but Brownells has gotten to be very pricey compared to others lately.  Don't have those in hand yet

FFS - HIT HIM!!!