Talk about Capitals hockey & more! > Washington Capitals & Other Hockey Discussion
GDT#80 Capitals @ Panthers 7:00pm Mon Apr 1, 2019 NBCSWA, TVAS, FS-F
Mickstix:
:rofl:
richkrt99:
Head coaches and star players always get more credit for wins and more blame for losses than they deserve. Hockey is probably the most TEAM win sport there is, so this is especially true.
That being said, the Caps have been the best team in the Metro the last four years. Congrats and kudos to everyone involved.
Trotz is a great coach in the right atmosphere, but he sucked ass for us in the playoffs the previous 2 years (prior to the cup) and the previous 17 years of his career. IMO he cost us NOT A CUP, but a viable shot at it the previous two seasons.
IMO it's a real stretch (okay total fantasy) to say he was held back by management the prior two years (as well as the prior 17 or so?) until his job was gone and then just said, "fuck it...I'm doing it my way" and went on to Finally win a Cup. If that's the case, then he was a spineless Head Coach for 20 years....Meh, not buying.
DC, we know what type of hockey you prefer (as do I), but most of that is gone. I still love the game and the Caps. I don't think Reirdon has what it takes to win a Cup, but I don't think Trotz really did either. I agree with KAZ that Trotz stifled our players rather than allowing them to blossom. Some of both is needed and surely what a great coach does. I'm not touting Reirdon as a great coach. I'd say Trotz is better and I applauded his hiring. He did benefit the Caps, but also eventually hindered them.
I don't have the resources to go back and fact check, but I recall YOU DC saying Trotz was simply out-coached and outclassed in the previous playoff series losses against the HENS. Now you think Trotz is great and it was all GMBM's and Monumental's fault? We know don't like GMBM, but NOBODY is totally at fault for anything. And it is the coaches job to use the resources he has been giving to win.
I think GMBM has done a marvelous job overall. He has managed to provide enough tools to be ultimately successful. Hindsight is always 20/20. Yes he has made mistakes. Yes he has overpaid on some (many) contracts. But some of that is necessary to get the players you need to win. Some of it is a risk, and you have to take those risks to win. Some risks blow up in your face. Shattenkirk was a bust, but a risk worth taking at the time. Kempney was a low level risk signing, but a good acquisition. Jensen deal is a steal. The Orpik salary dumb/trade, buyback for $1mil was brilliant. Maybe just luck there, but trading Orpik's contract HAD to be done. We got lucky and got him back on the cheap. (or maybe someone knew it all along). Yes, he let Beagle walk, but No way is Beagle worth 3 million to THIS TEAM. We simply could not afford that for what is basically a career 4th liner. I love Beags and would love to have him and his skill set, but if you don't pay 2019 Cadillac prices for a 2010 F150 do you? We traded/let walk away Brooks Laich, and Karl Alzner. I loved both of those guys, but neither would have helped the Caps past their tenure here.
We would all like to see better trades and better deals and better players (yes, we need a dominant D man....or 2....or..), but EVERY team out there is after the same thing, and it all has to be managed under the Cap. I think GMBM has done that extremely well in his tenure, especially from where he started. We were salary cap-strung long before GMBM was at the helm.
DC, I'm pretty much on the same side of most of your arguments, but not this yo-yo on Trotz (If my recall from years past is actually correct, and I'm open to the possibility it is not). I disagree on your hatred for GMBM as well. It is not GMBM's fault the league is changing to "women's rules" hockey. It IS his fault if he does not adjust to it.
Also, not sure why you have to berate KAZ. I though most of what he had to say was insightful and well put together. Maybe you think he is a troll cause he's a noob? Still no reason to attack him. That's not very welcoming to new fans/members.
I don't think the Caps have what it takes to win a Cup this year. New coach (maybe he will be great someday, maybe not, but it IS his first year), Aging D and weak on D, injured D. Declining PP, horrible PK. Horrible faceoff. All these things add up to small critical losses at important times. THIS team cannot afford the sum of all these little things. I don't see the Caps getting by Tampa IF we make it that far. (I didn't think we'd get by Tampa last year either :uh-huh: )
I am still going to watch though. I am going to enjoy the battle (I hope). I am going to root for my team. I am going to throw stuff at the TV at times, and hopefully in the end, I will rejoice like I have never (okay, once) before.
GO CAPS
richkrt99:
--- Quote from: Surreylily on Sunday April 07, 2019, 10:01:47 PM Eastern ---Build a raft people. build raft
--- End quote ---
someone explain please?
Kaz:
Thanks, Rich. I don't mean to harp on Trotz but that's what it looks like when you're responding to someone raving about him... you kinda hafta focus on the negatives.
Trotz was exactly what we needed when he got here. We needed his experience, discipline, and systems-driven hockey. He has a philosophy that you can install into any team and make it operate properly almost immediately. His approach is very keen on accountability; that there's a Right Way To Play. And he's right. His style is a blueprint for getting any hockey team to play effectively and responsibly, so it's a perfect fit for a blue collar, no-frills organization like the Isles are now and the Preds were during his tenure.
But the thing those teams have in common is Zero Superstars. The Preds had brief flirtations with late-model versions of Forsberg, Kariya, and Feds, but for the most part it was 15 years of zero elite talent, just like today's Isles without Tavares. If you have that kind of team, Trotz is 100% your guy. He's perfect for that.
The problem here is that we needed the philosophy and discipline desperately, but that's all. Once we bought in, Trotz was in over his head. We have several skill players that just don't fit the Play The Right Way mold. They need some freedom to be creative and take chances. We had a number of extraordinary talents crammed into ordinary containers. So Wilson's development stagnated, Burakovsky never found his confidence because he spent 4 straight years in Trotz's doghouse, Vrana spent an extra year on the farm unnecessarily because Trotz would rather have the blue collar vet, Schmidt got marginalized and tossed aside because Trotz wouldn't trust youth (or Reirden), Connolly was relegated to garbage minutes, Kuzy disappeared for 6 months including an entire playoff year while Trotz tried to stifle every creative impulse he had, and on and on and on.
Then last year -- and we know this because of the end-of-year expose the Post did -- management cracked down, nearly fired Trotz twice, and ultimately forced him to cede more control to his assistants. And this is the year that the regular season was a roller coaster while we gave time to kids that never would have gotten the chances they did otherwise.
Some things didn't work out. Holtby's game struggled while we tried D pairs that didn't pan out. Bowey was a bust but got 50+ games to try, Djoos was a patchwork replacement, Burakovsky's development seemed to have stalled irreparably. But that's the point of the regular season in today's NHL. You have 82 games to evaluate everything you have so you can make informed adjustments.
So in past years with Trotz completely in control, kids got no chance or development, we spent no time tinkering with chemistry or trying to evolve our systems, and thus our GM had to take blind shots at making improvements. So you end up with midseason acquisitions like Clencross and Gleason; guys that just add depth but do nothing to address weaknesses. This is why during those years MacLellan's best moves were in the offseason where he could exercise more control. And he had to take big swings because he knew those were his best chances to make real change.
So during the season you get low-rent trades, but in the offseason you get Orpik, Oshie, Niskanen, Williams, Connolly, and Eller. And GMBM wasn't shy about letting blue collar guys go and dealing away value picks to make those changes. It was him subtracting big pieces of Trotz's on-ice philosophy and replacing them with guys that bring more risk and rambunctiousness. He replaced reliable pieces with difference-makers. So out with Laich, Ward, Brouwer, Alzner, and in with riskier impact guys.
We got Orpik and Niskanen because those were Reirden's guys and they were very solid players. Yes, we paid a lot, but a good GM knows he can deal with that when the time comes. When Orpik's contract became a real issue, he dealt with it. He inherited a dog contract with Laich and he dealt with it. The Oshie trade was a masterstroke, and the Oshie contract, if you really look at how it's structured, gets more tradable as it goes. The cap hit is what it is, but the actual money was front-loaded. So right around the time that we'll start to worry about his age and durability, he'll be a key deadline trade target for a team with some cap space looking to add the hundred things he does well.
Most of MaLellan's moves look like that. The Orlov deal might be a little rough, but it was the same type of dice roll you make when you're trying to save money by going long. So maybe Orlov ended up a little overpaid, but we absolutely saved a gigantic fortune on Kuzy. We got him at max term for $7.8 and a year later he was easily worth 10+. And GMBM just did the same thing with Wilson. It looked like a bit of an overpayment at first, but now Wilson has blown up and it looks like we'll save maybe as much as 10 million over the lifetime of that deal. He's likely about to do the same with Vrana.
But last year GMBM had the added benefit of a coaching staff using the regular season to properly evaluate talent. So where before it was "We need a depth defenseman" and we get a ho-hum Gleason or "We need more from our bottom 6" and we get a ho-hum Clencross, now our needs were specific. "Bowey isn't working out. Djoos can cover, but we need a lefty to eat top-4 minutes with Carlson." And we got exactly that -- Kempny (and Jerabek) -- specifically addressing a key weakness and solidifying our top 4 for years to come.
Same thing this year. Lots of tinkering with chemistry all year, lots up ups and downs and streaky play. But that's the point. We arrived at the deadline knowing exactly what we needed. "Bowey still isn't developing. He's not a fit here. We need a right-shot defenseman for the long haul because we have no righties on the farm." And GMBM goes out not only gets the best RD available, but then locks him up for 4 years because he knows Niskanen's nearing the end of his deal. Excellent move.
Our PK was atrocious, Burakovsky still wasn't clicking, we rotated the tires on our 4th line all year long and found it lacking. So GMBM goes out and gets the exact right guy, immediately improves the PK, solves the revolving door on the 4th, and ends up improving our 3rd line to boot.
This is why you struggle. It's why you give rookies lots of chances during the year and real time to work through issues to see if they can sort it out. There is ZERO benefit to rocking the regular season anymore. Presidents Trophies mean nothing, home ice only really lasts one series, and Holtby getting regular rest means way more than his share of a wins record. All that shit means nothing. Fully evaluate your team -- even if it costs you a few points in the standings -- make necessary changes, make the playoffs. THAT is when your A-game matters. GMBM understands this. Trotz didn't.
Maybe he learned it last year. I hope so, because I wish him well. I think he's a great guy, a wonderful family man, and there's plenty of reasons that he's one of the winningest coaches ever. That he won as many games as he did in Nashville given how little they spent on salary is bananas, truly amazing. But he did NOT get us the Cup. He contributed and added a lot to the foundation, but a lot of what finally made the difference happened in spite of him, not because of him.
DC_1908:
--- Quote from: richkrt99 on Monday April 08, 2019, 09:23:31 AM Eastern ---Head coaches and star players always get more credit for wins and more blame for losses than they deserve. Hockey is probably the most TEAM win sport there is, so this is especially true.
That being said, the Caps have been the best team in the Metro the last four years. Congrats and kudos to everyone involved.
Trotz is a great coach in the right atmosphere, but he sucked ass for us in the playoffs the previous 2 years (prior to the cup) and the previous 17 years of his career. IMO he cost us NOT A CUP, but a viable shot at it the previous two seasons.
IMO it's a real stretch (okay total fantasy) to say he was held back by management the prior two years (as well as the prior 17 or so?) until his job was gone and then just said, "fuck it...I'm doing it my way" and went on to Finally win a Cup. If that's the case, then he was a spineless Head Coach for 20 years....Meh, not buying.
DC, we know what type of hockey you prefer (as do I), but most of that is gone. I still love the game and the Caps. I don't think Reirdon has what it takes to win a Cup, but I don't think Trotz really did either. I agree with KAZ that Trotz stifled our players rather than allowing them to blossom. Some of both is needed and surely what a great coach does. I'm not touting Reirdon as a great coach. I'd say Trotz is better and I applauded his hiring. He did benefit the Caps, but also eventually hindered them.
I don't have the resources to go back and fact check, but I recall YOU DC saying Trotz was simply out-coached and outclassed in the previous playoff series losses against the HENS. Now you think Trotz is great and it was all GMBM's and Monumental's fault? We know don't like GMBM, but NOBODY is totally at fault for anything. And it is the coaches job to use the resources he has been giving to win.
I think GMBM has done a marvelous job overall. He has managed to provide enough tools to be ultimately successful. Hindsight is always 20/20. Yes he has made mistakes. Yes he has overpaid on some (many) contracts. But some of that is necessary to get the players you need to win. Some of it is a risk, and you have to take those risks to win. Some risks blow up in your face. Shattenkirk was a bust, but a risk worth taking at the time. Kempney was a low level risk signing, but a good acquisition. Jensen deal is a steal. The Orpik salary dumb/trade, buyback for $1mil was brilliant. Maybe just luck there, but trading Orpik's contract HAD to be done. We got lucky and got him back on the cheap. (or maybe someone knew it all along). Yes, he let Beagle walk, but No way is Beagle worth 3 million to THIS TEAM. We simply could not afford that for what is basically a career 4th liner. I love Beags and would love to have him and his skill set, but if you don't pay 2019 Cadillac prices for a 2010 F150 do you? We traded/let walk away Brooks Laich, and Karl Alzner. I loved both of those guys, but neither would have helped the Caps past their tenure here.
We would all like to see better trades and better deals and better players (yes, we need a dominant D man....or 2....or..), but EVERY team out there is after the same thing, and it all has to be managed under the Cap. I think GMBM has done that extremely well in his tenure, especially from where he started. We were salary cap-strung long before GMBM was at the helm.
DC, I'm pretty much on the same side of most of your arguments, but not this yo-yo on Trotz (If my recall from years past is actually correct, and I'm open to the possibility it is not). I disagree on your hatred for GMBM as well. It is not GMBM's fault the league is changing to "women's rules" hockey. It IS his fault if he does not adjust to it.
Also, not sure why you have to berate KAZ. I though most of what he had to say was insightful and well put together. Maybe you think he is a troll cause he's a noob? Still no reason to attack him. That's not very welcoming to new fans/members.
I don't think the Caps have what it takes to win a Cup this year. New coach (maybe he will be great someday, maybe not, but it IS his first year), Aging D and weak on D, injured D. Declining PP, horrible PK. Horrible faceoff. All these things add up to small critical losses at important times. THIS team cannot afford the sum of all these little things. I don't see the Caps getting by Tampa IF we make it that far. (I didn't think we'd get by Tampa last year either :uh-huh: )
I am still going to watch though. I am going to enjoy the battle (I hope). I am going to root for my team. I am going to throw stuff at the TV at times, and hopefully in the end, I will rejoice like I have never (okay, once) before.
GO CAPS
--- End quote ---
Yes, I did criticize and question Trotzs lack of adjustments and stubbornness the previous two years of the playoffs, then it became more and more clear.
This should be a whole other post, but yes: there is enough dara to show that Trotz wasn’t able to coach his game until he knew wasn’t coming back, and not the be was arrogant, or some incompetent dinosaur who couldn’t coach the greatest team ever assembled like others implied.
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