Talk about Capitals hockey & more! > Washington Capitals & Other Hockey Discussion
GDT#80 Capitals @ Panthers 7:00pm Mon Apr 1, 2019 NBCSWA, TVAS, FS-F
Kaz:
--- Quote from: DC_1908 on Saturday April 06, 2019, 11:18:10 PM Eastern ---No fuckin way. Trotz never coached like he did the first two years of GMBetaMales tenure. THATS when chicken shit hockey started, or returned. Trotzs game was always a an aggressive trap based system pushing keeping everything along the boards and wearing out opponents with physical play. Real hockey, not this faggy Eurotrash woman’s rules chicken shit called “The New NHL” that’s like the WNBA on ice.
Wilson played, and played great were he was best suited at the time:on one of the best shutdown line we’ve had. Then we over paid two UFAs on D, and made about the most moronic trade in Caps history for Shattenkrai. so Monumental isn’t gonna let him give Schmidt more of a shot, and Bura or Connelly aren’t strong, smart or good enough to play his style. So he did what he could with that line up Monumental gave him for two years so they could sell tickets to naive fans of woman’s rules hockey.
It’s pretty damn convenient that he changed all this after he was rumored for the NYI? There’s a good chance he wasn’t coming back, so he said hell with Monumental, and went to a team ran by Lou Lamoriello, who built a dynasty on playin the right way.
What we saw tonight, that shut us out, was the style he coached for years in Nashville and what he dis here his first season. He finally tweaked it to get most of this lineup to win 16 games last spring because he didn’t give a fuck what Monumental Entertainment said.
--- End quote ---
Wow, that's a lot of revisionist history. Trotz got flat outcoached the two years prior to the Cup win, and the Cup win came when he started running contrary to a lot of what he was doing before.
You don't like modern hockey. We get it. You were the guy who proclaimed so loudly when the new divisions were announced that the Caps didn't have what it takes to compete in the Metro. For months you went on about how outclassed we'd be. And 6 years later we have cumulatively dominated the division, defying every ounce of your prognostication.
And now you can't stop crowing about "GMBetaMale," easily one of the best GMs of the last few years. His only glaring mistake was mishandling the expansion draft. Everything else has worked out very well, so says 4 straight division titles and a Stanley Cup.
Look at last year, DC. Trotz was nearly fired twice, then suddenly the kids are playing and moving up in the lineup, and that proved huge for us. Our depth and the emergence of young players, leaning on the goalie he benched, letting Kuznetsov freewheel instead of hamstringing him. These are the reasons we won the Cup and these were the things Trotz was 100% opposed to in the seasons prior.
Trotz was exactly what we needed when he was first hired. We needed the discipline and accountability; Mitch Korn and defensive focus; getting the team to buy in and play together. He's excellent at getting the most from flagging, undisciplined, or less-talented teams with smaller budgets. So he turned us around in no time flat, just like he's doing in NY now and did for so many years in Nashville.
But once a team outgrows those issues -- once the discipline and systems are in place and it becomes about grooming, fostering, and complementing talent -- Trotz sputters. He refuses to trust or develop young players, pushes playing "The Right Way" over and above everything else, and thus becomes unwilling to tweak the systems, take the chances, and force the play that wins championships. He did it last year because he was forced to, and he fought it the whole way.
He had us playing perimeter hockey in the playoffs for two straight years with the best teams we ever had, and we lost both years doing the same stupid shit, not even trying to take the play to the Pens. It was gutless and showed zero willingness or ability to make the adjustments necessary to win. The only changes he made those years were tantamount to turtling -- refusing the put talent on the ice, dressing 7 D for no reason, not contesting the center of the ice, taking shitloads of low-rent shots making middling goaltenders look like Hall of Famers.
He had us playing like a gaggle of faggots, and it showed. We went home both years looking like the losers we were.
Then last year management obviously gave him one more shot in two well-documented near-firings. And this is the year the kids got to play despite the preferences Trotz made so clear for 3 years. And so Wilson and Connolly got more time, we got to see if Bowey had it then trusted mini-Djoos to play his weak side when it didn't work out. Stephenson, Vrana, and DSP got the nod. Suddenly we're getting to the net, deflections and rebounds galore, doing the dirty work. Suddenly we're not trying to sit on 1-goal leads, we're forcing the play, winning between the blues, taking chances, making adjustments.
And your narrative is that that's what Trotz always wanted to do? Despite that NOT being his style AT ALL in 20+ years of coaching. You're right about the trapping and board play, absolutely. And all that amounts to is playing it safe, never giving an inch but never taking one, either. It works when your team is outgunned, light on skill, and lacks depth. It's your best bet, and it makes sense like when Hunter did it when we were outgunned. But it didn't make sense when we were loaded with talent. He was holding us back.
Last year he finally took the reins off. If he'd done that either of the two years prior, there's a decent chance we'd have won more than one Cup in the last 3 years.
So pat him on the back for the Cup we got. He definitely contributed. But he's #1 on the blame chart for the failures of the two years before that. He was our weakest link, and it wasn't close.
DC_1908:
--- Quote from: Kaz on Sunday April 07, 2019, 12:10:43 AM Eastern ---
Wow, that's a lot of revisionist history. Trotz got flat outcoached the two years prior to the Cup win, and the Cup win came when he started running contrary to a lot of what he was doing before.
You don't like modern hockey. We get it. You were the guy who proclaimed so loudly when the new divisions were announced that the Caps didn't have what it takes to compete in the Metro. For months you went on about how outclassed we'd be. And 6 years later we have cumulatively dominated the division, defying every ounce of your prognostication.
And now you can't stop crowing about "GMBetaMale," easily one of the best GMs of the last few years. His only glaring mistake was mishandling the expansion draft. Everything else has worked out very well, so says 4 straight division titles and a Stanley Cup.
Look at last year, DC. Trotz was nearly fired twice, then suddenly the kids are playing and moving up in the lineup, and that proved huge for us. Our depth and the emergence of young players, leaning on the goalie he benched, letting Kuznetsov freewheel instead of hamstringing him. These are the reasons we won the Cup and these were the things Trotz was 100% opposed to in the seasons prior.
Trotz was exactly what we needed when he was first hired. We needed the discipline and accountability; Mitch Korn and defensive focus; getting the team to buy in and play together. He's excellent at getting the most from flagging, undisciplined, or less-talented teams with smaller budgets. So he turned us around in no time flat, just like he's doing in NY now and did for so many years in Nashville.
But once a team outgrows those issues -- once the discipline and systems are in place and it becomes about grooming, fostering, and complementing talent -- Trotz sputters. He refuses to trust or develop young players, pushes playing "The Right Way" over and above everything else, and thus becomes unwilling to tweak the systems, take the chances, and force the play that wins championships. He did it last year because he was forced to, and he fought it the whole way.
He had us playing perimeter hockey in the playoffs for two straight years with the best teams we ever had, and we lost both years doing the same stupid shit, not even trying to take the play to the Pens. It was gutless and showed zero willingness or ability to make the adjustments necessary to win. The only changes he made those years were tantamount to turtling -- refusing the put talent on the ice, dressing 7 D for no reason, not contesting the center of the ice, taking shitloads of low-rent shots making middling goaltenders look like Hall of Famers.
He had us playing like a gaggle of faggots, and it showed. We went home both years looking like the losers we were.
Then last year management obviously gave him one more shot in two well-documented near-firings. And this is the year the kids got to play despite the preferences Trotz made so clear for 3 years. And so Wilson and Connolly got more time, we got to see if Bowey had it then trusted mini-Djoos to play his weak side when it didn't work out. Stephenson, Vrana, and DSP got the nod. Suddenly we're getting to the net, deflections and rebounds galore, doing the dirty work. Suddenly we're not trying to sit on 1-goal leads, we're forcing the play, winning between the blues, taking chances, making adjustments.
And your narrative is that that's what Trotz always wanted to do? Despite that NOT being his style AT ALL in 20+ years of coaching. You're right about the trapping and board play, absolutely. And all that amounts to is playing it safe, never giving an inch but never taking one, either. It works when your team is outgunned, light on skill, and lacks depth. It's your best bet, and it makes sense like when Hunter did it when we were outgunned. But it didn't make sense when we were loaded with talent. He was holding us back.
Last year he finally took the reins off. If he'd done that either of the two years prior, there's a decent chance we'd have won more than one Cup in the last 3 years.
So pat him on the back for the Cup we got. He definitely contributed. But he's #1 on the blame chart for the failures of the two years before that. He was our weakest link, and it wasn't close.
--- End quote ---
thats a LOT of dramatic hero worship appoogizing right there. Yep, GMBetaMale saved the day our together a team better than the 84 Oils alrigh!! Praise Jesus!
Kuzy, Bura, Connolly, and the garbage D, where ready, willing and more than able to play smart, defensive two-way hockey, Trotz just told em to play soft and stupid the whole time right?
Have you really watched this fuckin team the past three and followed this organization before and after Ted took over?
Get the fuck outta here with that fairy tale narritve. It’s clear you don’t like smart, physical hockey, you just like Woman’s Rules ,“Scoar Moare” videogame, rec-league entertainment like you’re told to.
Kaz:
Yeah, that's your move, trying to belittle people because you can't articulate an actual argument.
You went on for months about how the Caps could never compete in the new Metro and they absolutely destroyed it. Guys who don't play your brand of hockey are stupid and soft. Meanwhile, Connolly has the highest shooting percentage on the team over the last three years, Kuzy was our best player in the Cup run. You need rangy, opportunistic, offensive-minded players to compete in today's game. Hogtying those guys 2 and 3 years ago, forcing them to play perimeter, paint-by-numbers hockey, is what cost us legit shots at Cups.
I love Barry Trotz, but what he lacks has always been creativity. If he can't immediately quantify everything a player is, he doesn't trust it. That's why he's so uncomfortable with young players and bad at developing them. It's also why he has an aversion to skill guys -- he can't embrace the creativity and vision required to to maximize the potential of next-level talent. He reins them in instead, forces them to play against type. And they need doses of that, sure, but once those values have been instilled, you have to nurture and develop the skill and trust it enough to unleash it, exposing yourself to things you can't always predict. Trotz doesn't have that gene. He's a control freak.
Oates was the polar opposite. He WAS a next-level superstar talent, so he was all about encouraging everyone to think outside the box. Switch to the opposite side, move from wing to center, change your stick... And most guys aren't built for that. That's what made him a bad coach. He struggled with the things Trotz excels at, and vice versa.
Today's game rewards the happy medium. Tom Wilson is a great example. All Oates saw was a meathead kid. Trotz wanted to rein him in. Play a shutdown role, learn to shadow and PK, forecheck, grind, and fight. Meanwhile, Tom had an offensive gear from birth that no one nurtured at the NHL level, not until management shook Trotz and forced him to change his approach. Now we see his speed and his shot and his vision. Suddenly he's maybe our best deflection guy and a breakneck transition and possession player. And if you saw him play before the NHL, you'd know that he was ALWAYS that guy. And he never would have achieved what he did this year under Trotz because Trotz was all about handcuffing him.
He's a two-dimensional coach, which is fantastic when you have a two-dimensional club. Trotz never adjusted his systems to accommodate things players excel at; the stuff that comes naturally to them. His systems are ironclad and unbending, and they work, but they shackle and curtail natural talent and creativity.
And look what happened when they threatened to fire Trotz and gave Reirden more say in the room. Suddenly systems adjusted to the talent on the team instead of a team being forced to play regimented, predictable, guarded hockey. We started catering to our strengths instead of harping on weaknesses, embracing youth instead of locking it away, playing to win instead of sitting on leads. Half our mainstays had new dimensions to their games, young guys that never would have seen the lineup got chances, earned spots, and excelled.
If you think ANY of that was Trotz you are fucking nuts. All of that is absolutely antithetical to what he's ever done as an NHL coach. Your 80's hockey philosophy is woefully outdated and your "GMBetaMale" schtick is total horseshit.
Look at the way we lost in 2016 and 2017 when Trotz was 100% in charge versus how we won last year after he lost the room, lost management, and was forced to cede more control to his assistants, the INSTANT change in success from that point forward was obvious.
Trotz did great things here. We needed the simplicity and discipline he excels at big time at first, but then quickly outgrew him. He was our #1 weakness in those back-to-back losses to the Pens in '16 and '17.
And who is this hero you say I'm worshiping? That Cup win was a team victory in every sense. Our whole roster showed up and overcame the mistakes and shortcomings of our coaching and management. Trotz and MacLellan both made mistakes along the way. The players won that title, plain and simple.
Surreylily:
Hmmmmm.
Loving the whodjamflip. Notso surea bout the rest. Are you more penguin or flyer than our boys maybe? Not convinced. :-|
4 Caps:
--- Quote from: Surreylily on Sunday April 07, 2019, 08:43:34 PM Eastern ---Hmmmmm.
Loving the whodjamflip. Notso surea bout the rest. Are you more penguin or flyer than our boys maybe? Not convinced. :-|
--- End quote ---
Where do you get the idea that he is more of a Flyer or Penguin fan. His is one of the most insightfull analysis that I have read on this board. For the most part I agree with his analysis. He is absolutely right that it was Rierden who came up with the change in system that led to our success last season.
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