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Offseason starts
BlackIce:
--- Quote from: Maacoshark on Sunday June 24, 2018, 10:39:54 PM Eastern --- I dont compare him to any of those dmen those guys are all top shutdown guys. You make it sound like Carlson is an offense only player. That just isnt the case. He isn't bad defensively. And he us a decent penalty killer. Just because you don't care vfor his game doesnt change that.
Oh you mentioned Bobby Orr with all those shutdown dmen. Not sure if you watched Orr play or not. He was good defensively but he wasnt a shutdown guy. You could have included Larry Robinson and Denis Potvin in that list.
--- End quote ---
Funny how, when we talk about whether or not Carlson is a shutdown defenseman, we're comparing him to guys who played decades ago. (We could add Langway to the list, by the way). Thing is, the rules of the game, the capabilities of the players, and the nature of the play is NOTHING like it was decades ago.
I really wonder if any of the players that have been mentioned in recent posts would be anywhere near as effective now as they were decades ago. I would define a "shutdown defenseman" as a person who, with reasonable defensive support from his teammates, can dominate play in the defensive zone (turn over puck control, deny quality scoring chances in the slot, not make dumb mistakes that lead to quality scoring chances for the opposition) to such an extent that he alone can virtually eliminate offense from the opponent when he is on the ice. I don't know that such a player exists anymore, because the nature of the game is now such that 5-man defense is imperative, especially as the intensity of play ramps up.
If we faced a "shutdown defenseman" in this year's playoffs, it was probably Victor Hedman -- and he was a -7 in the Caps/Tampa series. To be blunt, he didn't shut down diddly squat. The entire concept of a "shutdown defenseman" may be one that is receding due to the evolution of rules and the nature of play. The bevy of defensemen selected in the first round of the just-completed draft certainly suggests that; the small, quick defenseman with offensive strike capability was what everyone was looking for.
Now in DC's world, all that means is that all the GM's are stupid and they aren't building to COUNTERACT what everyone else is doing. I'm presuming that he would then be relatively happy with the Caps selecting Alexeyev, who has the potential to be a sturdy, rugged defenseman (assuming he gets with the weight/nutritional program) that could clear the slot and defend by pushing smaller people around. We'll see how that works out.
But back to Carlson: I don't know that it is fair to compare him to shutdown defensemen of a generation or more ago. It isn't fair to him, and it may not be fair to the nature of today's game. His contract will undoubtedly be a large overpay in the last half of it. We can hope that he pays dividends commensurate with his cost in the first half (his 29-32 year seasons; arguably his prime). My big concern with Carlson is that he has already played 8 or 9 rugged, essentially full seasons of duty as a top defenseman with lots of TOI. The guy is a horse, but there is always the possibility that injury or general wear and tear could deteriorate his play and make his contract an albatross sooner rather than later (cf Karl Alzner.) That's the risk the organization takes to lock down the services of clearly one of the best all-around defensemen around right now in a market where the alternatives were, frankly, unpalatable.
DC_1908:
--- Quote from: BlackIce on Monday June 25, 2018, 07:23:58 AM Eastern ---
Funny how, when we talk about whether or not Carlson is a shutdown defenseman, we're comparing him to guys who played decades ago. (We could add Langway to the list, by the way). Thing is, the rules of the game, the capabilities of the players, and the nature of the play is NOTHING like it was decades ago.
I really wonder if any of the players that have been mentioned in recent posts would be anywhere near as effective now as they were decades ago. I would define a "shutdown defenseman" as a person who, with reasonable defensive support from his teammates, can dominate play in the defensive zone (turn over puck control, deny quality scoring chances in the slot, not make dumb mistakes that lead to quality scoring chances for the opposition) to such an extent that he alone can virtually eliminate offense from the opponent when he is on the ice. I don't know that such a player exists anymore, because the nature of the game is now such that 5-man defense is imperative, especially as the intensity of play ramps up.
If we faced a "shutdown defenseman" in this year's playoffs, it was probably Victor Hedman -- and he was a -7 in the Caps/Tampa series. To be blunt, he didn't shut down diddly squat. The entire concept of a "shutdown defenseman" may be one that is receding due to the evolution of rules and the nature of play. The bevy of defensemen selected in the first round of the just-completed draft certainly suggests that; the small, quick defenseman with offensive strike capability was what everyone was looking for.
Now in DC's world, all that means is that all the GM's are stupid and they aren't building to COUNTERACT what everyone else is doing. I'm presuming that he would then be relatively happy with the Caps selecting Alexeyev, who has the potential to be a sturdy, rugged defenseman (assuming he gets with the weight/nutritional program) that could clear the slot and defend by pushing smaller people around. We'll see how that works out.
But back to Carlson: I don't know that it is fair to compare him to shutdown defensemen of a generation or more ago. It isn't fair to him, and it may not be fair to the nature of today's game. His contract will undoubtedly be a large overpay in the last half of it. We can hope that he pays dividends commensurate with his cost in the first half (his 29-32 year seasons; arguably his prime). My big concern with Carlson is that he has already played 8 or 9 rugged, essentially full seasons of duty as a top defenseman with lots of TOI. The guy is a horse, but there is always the possibility that injury or general wear and tear could deteriorate his play and make his contract an albatross sooner rather than later (cf Karl Alzner.) That's the risk the organization takes to lock down the services of clearly one of the best all-around defensemen around right now in a market where the alternatives were, frankly, unpalatable.
--- End quote ---
Oh come fuck on, glad you like "wamans" hockey so much. Gee maybe the NHL will ban fighting, all contact, suspend players who bench to much, and go co-ed before the end of your lifetime! Thats they way society is going so therefore it must be great and we must obey, right?
BTW, if you don't think shutdown D players exist anymore, either you don't watch much hockey, or you are just trying to agitate me.
dpf1971:
So DC ... let me ask you this. In the league, right now, tell me the names of at least 2 or 3 of your goon/shut-down defensemen - ie. the guys you would want to populate our blue line.
DC_1908:
--- Quote from: BlackIce on Monday June 25, 2018, 07:23:58 AM Eastern ---
Funny how, when we talk about whether or not Carlson is a shutdown defenseman, we're comparing him to guys who played decades ago. (We could add Langway to the list, by the way). Thing is, the rules of the game, the capabilities of the players, and the nature of the play is NOTHING like it was decades ago.
I really wonder if any of the players that have been mentioned in recent posts would be anywhere near as effective now as they were decades ago. I would define a "shutdown defenseman" as a person who, with reasonable defensive support from his teammates, can dominate play in the defensive zone (turn over puck control, deny quality scoring chances in the slot, not make dumb mistakes that lead to quality scoring chances for the opposition) to such an extent that he alone can virtually eliminate offense from the opponent when he is on the ice. I don't know that such a player exists anymore, because the nature of the game is now such that 5-man defense is imperative, especially as the intensity of play ramps up.
If we faced a "shutdown defenseman" in this year's playoffs, it was probably Victor Hedman -- and he was a -7 in the Caps/Tampa series. To be blunt, he didn't shut down diddly squat. The entire concept of a "shutdown defenseman" may be one that is receding due to the evolution of rules and the nature of play. The bevy of defensemen selected in the first round of the just-completed draft certainly suggests that; the small, quick defenseman with offensive strike capability was what everyone was looking for.
Now in DC's world, all that means is that all the GM's are stupid and they aren't building to COUNTERACT what everyone else is doing. I'm presuming that he would then be relatively happy with the Caps selecting Alexeyev, who has the potential to be a sturdy, rugged defenseman (assuming he gets with the weight/nutritional program) that could clear the slot and defend by pushing smaller people around. We'll see how that works out.
But back to Carlson: I don't know that it is fair to compare him to shutdown defensemen of a generation or more ago. It isn't fair to him, and it may not be fair to the nature of today's game. His contract will undoubtedly be a large overpay in the last half of it. We can hope that he pays dividends commensurate with his cost in the first half (his 29-32 year seasons; arguably his prime). My big concern with Carlson is that he has already played 8 or 9 rugged, essentially full seasons of duty as a top defenseman with lots of TOI. The guy is a horse, but there is always the possibility that injury or general wear and tear could deteriorate his play and make his contract an albatross sooner rather than later (cf Karl Alzner.) That's the risk the organization takes to lock down the services of clearly one of the best all-around defensemen around right now in a market where the alternatives were, frankly, unpalatable.
--- End quote ---
And here’s a few glimpses of what a Dman, both shutdown & 200ft, not just a 4th forward, looks like in todays game. Granted the years are adding up for him, but he’s still quitely one of the best.
I’ll warn you this is pretty violent . . .
DC_1908:
--- Quote from: dpf1971 on Monday June 25, 2018, 11:12:16 AM Eastern ---So DC ... let me ask you this. In the league, right now, tell me the names of at least 2 or 3 of your goon/shut-down defensemen - ie. the guys you would want to populate our blue line.
--- End quote ---
Well, with out cap considerations, or lets just say players in the style of:
- Sutter
- Hedman
- Burns
- Chara
- Dougherty
- Webber
- D Buff (his last name is a bitch to spell)
- Phanuef
- Keith
- Kronwall
- Methot
- Olesniak
- Millar
- Bieksa
- McNabb
- McQuaid
- Stephen Johns
- Martinez
to name a but a few of the physical shutdown defenseman that according to some "canot play in this league anymore".
While they are smart enough to run a PP, or have a heavy enough shot in Burns case, to contribute offensively, it can safely be said that their primary assignments are defending against the top scorers of the other team, not trying to toe-drag and dangle behind the other teams net shortly followed by coasting watching the other teams odd-man rush and/or break away because no ones there to stop it.
Sure I listed some superstars that are some of the highest players in the league up there, but I also threw in a few little to unknown ones as well. If you go through the reports of of most NHL teams, you will see more shutdown/defensive defenseman on the current roster and in the systems than most would think or acknowledge existed. This type of player doesn't get numbers and doesn't get much attention/hype/promotion except when the ones they are playing against aren't scoring, or a hit/fight extra, ergo like Milar they get dubbed 'goons'. . .
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